Philosophy Question

@KiwiBird And why some on the left are defending this is beyond me.....

@KiwiBird It is telling everyone seems to go back to the 40 year old version of the charter and pretend like even Hamas hasn't moved on key issues and even they are not as extreme now as they were back then.

The 1988 version is more politically useful for that.

@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow Yeah, Hamas are all about progressive values 😆

@BritishFailedAesthetic First off this post from Kiwibird is a pointless whataboutism.


But is also very politically calculated. If you hide the fact that even the most extreme elements are moving towards a more reasonable position it becomes harder to dehumanize them into demonic beasts that cannot be reasoned with.

Useful if you support war.

@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow I think what happened on Oct 7 reinforced the original Hamas charter and not something I would call reasonable.

@KiwiBird Remember that post you read about Misapplied Truisms?

@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow unfortunately, Hamas consistently reaffirms it's goal. The leader recently said that he plans to repeat the events of October 7 over and over until they destroy Israel, kill all the Jews and gain control from the river to the sea.

@Burnley123 Obviously that was one of yours. 🤣

@samueltyler2 @KiwiBird

The current Hamas charter...the one that is not almost half a century old bares no resemblance to what is stated here.

It recognizes the state of Israel along the 1967 borders and unequivocally states their beef is with the state of Israel and zionist occupiers and not the Jewish people.

This is such a huge change that the 1988 Hamas would be at war with the current version they are at such different places.

What you tried to hijack the conversation with an appeal to emotion is about tactics.

What was done on Oct 7th was horrible. But entirely predictable after a 16 year long siege where the average age is 17 because people don't live to see adulthood. A place with no hope and no future and under constant threat of death either slowly or by a bullet.

And according to the Israeli government's own names of the victims of Oct 7 over half are listed with their military rank....so not civilians.


The IDF is currrently at about a 90% civilian death rate. That too doesn't happen unless you are trying.

We are currently looking at nearly 10 000 civilians dead about 4000 kids and 20 000 buried under rubble with no way to get them out because any equipment to get them out has been banned in Gaza.

So you might as well add 20k to the civilian death toll because their deaths are almost a certainty.

A cabinet minister recently floated the idea of dropping a tactical nuke on Gaza. I am sure those only kill soldiers right?

@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow

Really not against the Jewish people? What transpired on October 7 then if it wasn't against the Jewish people?

@KiwiBird Again you seem determined to pretend Israel and all Jews are one and the same. And that Palestinians and Hamas are synonyms.

And it speaks volumes you will not even engage with the argument and just double down on your appeal to emotion.


And I guess Palestinian civilians don't matter at all based on your argument.


I guess civilians being slaughtered is okay as long as they are the right ones.


You also seem determined to pretend that members of the IDF and the Israeli government have not been using identical language to the Hamas of 1988 and the only difference is the people they want to exterminate.

But again I guess the right atrocities get a pass here.

@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow You are like Hamas hiding behind the civilians of Gaza and expecting to be shielded. Grow a pair.

@KiwiBird Ummm no. Now you are just throwing insults because you have no argument.


And I see you are using that IDF approved excuse for slaughter.

Let me know when you have a real argument. Not going to waste my time with grade school insults and bad faith arguments.