What Israel is doing in Palestine [I Want Justice For Palestine]

@helenS If only it were that simple. Then it might not be so hard to justify one action in spite of another.

@BlueMetalChick It's the most idiotic example of self-inflicted misery that I know of. Gaza is essentially a Mediterranean beach, right? Imagine the possibilities. They could set up huge hotel complexes to milk fat German tourists, they could sell them overpriced ice cream. They could have excellent business relations with everyone, including Israel. More than only a few could drive a Mercedes Benz. 😕

@helenS The reason that they're not doing that is because Israel has told them they don't have the right to live on that land. They're not recognized as a sovereign country. That's why they can't form any type of infrastructure. Palestinian people are not allowed to connect their homes to the municipal water supply. If they try to use the power grid, they're cut off. If they set up solar panels to harness electricity because they're off the grid, the Israeli military confiscates the solar panels. If Palestine was allowed to be a sovereign country, they probably WOULD do all that stuff you said, but their land is being taken more and more each year because Israel believes the land belongs to them, and any Palestinians living on it are committing a crime in doing so.

@BlueMetalChick Are we talking about the Gaza strip now?

@helenS Yes, wasn't that what we were talking about from the start?

@BlueMetalChick I can't see how Israel is taking away land from the Gaza strip. They withdraw from Gaza a long time ago. Gaza is terrorized by Hamas and "Islamic Jihad", not by Israel.

@helenS You can't see how they're taking away land? Every year, Israel annexes land from the Gaza Strip. Why do you think everyone talks about the "illegal occupation?" That's the whole point of the conflict. Palestine says they have the right to live on that land, Israel says they don't and it belongs to them, so the two fight. It's a one sided fight of course, because Israel has the money and weapons and international support while Palestine has a stockpile of outdated rockets and basically nothing else.

Even last year, Hamas themselves offered to halt violent action toward Israel were they allowed to return to the 1968 borders. Israel said no, and continued the occupation.

@BlueMetalChick Sorry but in 2005 Israel unilaterally dismantled of the 21 Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip and the evacuation of the settlers and Israeli army from inside the Gaza Strip.
The disengagement was proposed in 2003 by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, adopted by the government in June 2004, and approved by the Knesset in February 2005 as the Disengagement Plan Implementation Law. It was implemented in August 2005 and completed in September 2005. The settlers who refused to accept government compensation packages and voluntarily vacate their homes prior to the 15 August 2005 deadline were evicted by Israeli security forces over a period of several days.

@helenS So then, what, the entire Israeli government has just been lying to the world and pretending they're occupying land when they really aren't? And apparently AIPAC is in on the illusion because the US State Department makes press releases on it too.

@BlueMetalChick check your facts.....
Gaza Strip was conquered in 67 from Egypt (who had not given any rights to “self determination” to the locals....)
Egypt refused to take it back along with Sinai in the peace accords on the late 70s
Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005....
Nothing was ever annexed.

@BlueMetalChick They occupy land (which is highly problematic in my opinion), but not in Gaza as far as I know.
Anyway, sending "rockets" (= nothing more than oversized firecrackers) to Israel is an idiotic idea.

@BlueMetalChick the only occupied land left is Judaea and Samaria on the other side (West Bank)
Conquered from Jordan (who also had given the locals no rights) in the 1967 defensive war.
Palestine never was a country BTW (was the Roman name for the land of Israel)

@helenS those rockets fired from Gaza on Israel are destroying houses and kindergartens....and killing people.
A bit more than firecrackers....

@helenS Well yeah, of course it's an idiotic idea. It puts innocent people in danger and it does nothing but give Israel more reason to war with them. At the same time though, I kinda get why they're doing it. When you have absolutely nothing and the international community either pretends you don't exist, or they actively want you dead, you feel like you have no choice but to resort to violence.

That doesn't make it ok, obviously. Endangering lives is never ok. But understanding the cause of it makes it easier to know how to stop it. Recognizing Palestine as a legitimate state would probably solve most of it. Maybe not all of it, but it certainly would fix a great deal of the problem.

@Flipper111 The West Bank is a pretty fucked up situation too. If memory serves, the occupation is a whole lot more aggressive on that side of the divide. That's where the British hospital worker got sniped in the face a few years back and everyone was going nuts.

@Flipper111 Yes I know they destroy houses and they kill people. Sorry I did not want to downplay their horrible activities. 🌷

@BlueMetalChick sadly the picture you have of the situation is VERY distorted.

@helenS If it ain't right to launch rockets into populated areas then it also ain't right to kill a few thousand civilians. Israel's own military press releases have claimed upwards of an 80% collateral damage rate. Four out of every five people they kill is an innocent.

And furthermore, you should target the shitheads launching the rockets. Go after them, as you would any other criminal. That isn't their intention. Netanyahu's advisor said it herself, "the Palestinian people is our enemy. The whole people is the enemy. We must kill Palestinian mothers before they give birth to any more little snakes."

@Flipper111 Well, I'm getting my information from the Israeli government and the US State Department on their public press releases. So if they're lying, then my information is incorrect. But that's all I can tell you.

@BlueMetalChick [quote]At the same time though, I kinda get why they're doing it. [/quote]
It's not that "they" are doing it. [u]Hamas[/u] and "Islamic Jihad" are doing it, not just the people in Gaza. In my opinion, if the Gaza people want to live in peace they will have to hang 10,000 Hamas fighters, and that's not an easy task, because Hamas has a very efficient secret service, to kill all "infidels" (= political opponents).
The real victims of Hamas terror are the people in Gaza, and Israel only to a much lesser extent.

@helenS [quote]The real victims of Hamas terror are the people in Gaza, and Israel only to a much lesser extent.[/quote]
Yeah, more or less. The Palestinians living in Gaza are the ones Hamas hurts the most.

Still, the way to beat Hamas is not to just indiscriminately kill Palestinian people, or to treat them like third class citizens.

@BlueMetalChick I think you are making an interesting point here. Would it be possible for the IDF to [u]really[/u] get rid of Hamas once and for all?

@helenS Perhaps not possible to completely and totally eradicate all Hamas operatives, but to get rid of enough of them that they really have no chance to do any harm against anyone. International recognition of Palestine as a sovereign state would be a necessary component of that though. It would deradicalize a lot of the people who are currently part of Hamas, and it would also allow Palestinians themselves to keep down Hamas, similar to how other nations prevent their own endemic hate groups from getting out of hand.

@helenS [quote]It's the most idiotic example of self-inflicted misery that I know of. Gaza is essentially a Mediterranean beach, right? Imagine the possibilities. They could set up huge hotel complexes for fat German tourists, they could sell them overpriced ice cream. They could have excellent business relations with everyone, including Israel. More than only a few could drive a Mercedes Benz. 😕[/quote]

You have no idea what kind of restrictions Israel placed on Gazans. I've been to Gaza, and while Hamas is part of the problem, it is Israel's policies that made Hamas successful. You're European, so I believe you should be aware of what happened during the German, followed by Soviet occupation, right? All the locals have to do, is behave and all will be fine.

Gazans can't even take their tiny fishing boats out, to make a living if they so as much as protested. They have no airport. They can only exit Gaza to Israel or Egypt, under heavy scrutiny, and they have to be back. They are prisoners in a small rectangle of sand. Fat German tourists could be tripping over their guts, competing for beach chairs, just downwind from the open sewer pits.

@Northwest There are four Cardinal Virtues: Prudence, Justice, Fortitude, and Temperance. I firmly believe Gazans could live in peace, and wealth, if they abode by these simple virtues. The only virtue they follow is fortitude, but that's not enough. They need prudence and temperance, above all.