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Germany stalling on sending tanks to Ukraine

The Germans wouldn’t want to appear to be like Nazis of WW2 or anything but stalling on sending much needed tanks to help the Ukraine defense against Russia is making them look pro Russian more than pro NATO.
newjaninev2 · 51-55, F
Kanzler Olaf Scholz and the SPD party are collaborators... pro-russian assets.

Scholz has made promise after promise after duplicitous promise, but always finds some administrative or legal or financial reason why there must be delay after delay. In this, he is aided and abetted by Switzerland, and by the other pro-russian country currently betraying Western values... Hungary.

When it comes to something that could make a substantial difference, however, Scholz is decisive and firm and becomes a man of his word... and that word is that he will [b][i]not[/i][/b] give Ukraine Leopard tanks.

And the reason?

He and the SPD serve russia, and russian interests, and russian oligarchs.
Abstraction · 61-69, M
@newjaninev2 What's your source for this? It certainly makes sense, but it's a big call. I know nothing much about German internal politics.
@newjaninev2 Spouting cold war era conspiracy theories now? So much for you claims of being a rational thinker.
justanothername · 51-55, M
@newjaninev2 Yup, he is a Nazi at heart.
revenant · F
Ukraine is just a proxy war. Make it unproxy
justanothername · 51-55, M
@littlepuppywantanewlife
It all comes down to being part of NATO and Ukraine is not part of NATO. If they were then the rest of Europe could join in.
@justanothername [quote]It all comes down to being part of NATO and Ukraine is not part of NATO.[/quote] Absolutely true for Europe. The USA is in a slightly different situation.

Putin, seems to want people to forget a three-way treaty known as the [i]1994 Budapest Memorandum.[/i]

Essentially, Ukraine agreed to give up all its nuclear weapons to Russia in exchange for safety from a U.S. or Russian invasion. Russia's invasion of Ukraine violates that treaty. And as a signatory to that 1994 Budapest Memorandum, the U.S. has a definite interest in righting Putin's current wrongs.

[quote]In the final version of the deal, Russia promised not to attack Ukraine. While the U.S. and the U.K. assured Ukraine they would aid if it was attacked by Russia, that promised aid did not guarantee military support like a NATO country would receive.

In 2009, Russia and the U.S. announced that the assurances in the Budapest Memorandum would continue to remain in effect in the future.
[/quote]
https://www.verifythis.com/article/news/verify/global-conflicts/ukraine-agreed-to-give-up-nukes-in-exchange-for-safety-from-russia-invasion-attack-budapest-memorandum-treaty/536-8748a51f-10ee-47f0-be30-b4088750ee44

In short, Russia promised [i]specifically[/i] NOT to invade Ukraine, and the U.S. promised [i]specifically[/i] to ASSIST Ukraine if the treaty were ever violated. And that's what the U.S. is doing now.
justanothername · 51-55, M
@ElwoodBlues You don’t need to explain that to me. I’m well aware of it. It’s been answered on here before. :)

The other thing I can’t work out is why Russia is talking about the need to attack Poland at this point in the war.
From a few articles I read it appears unless the US sends Abrams tanks, the Germans won’t send their Leopard tanks reported to be very good tanks.
@newjaninev2 Thought you were describing trump. This sure fits him to a tee. 😆
@newjaninev2 Why do i get the feeling you see flying monkeys?
newjaninev2 · 51-55, F
@anythingoes477 Yes, trump or putin comes to the same thing... narcissistic autocratic gangsters with a simple approach:
Claim credit for victories and deny responsibility for defeats.
Lie. Never stop lying. If caught in a lie, tell a bigger lie.
Everyone else is expendable. Without remorse or hesitation... expendable

Of course, both are pathetic poseurs, and dustbin bound
MarkPaul · 26-30, M
Being plugged into international relations as I am, my sources tell me this isn't really quite the "stall issue" as it appears or is being reported. There is just some positioning and tactical maneuvering. Ultimately, Germany will provide the tanks. Within the next day or so, you will hear that Germany is taking an inventory of its stock without making any commitment followed by it's reconsidering the request.

You have to understand international relations to recognize the nuances of the positioning and communications.
newjaninev2 · 51-55, F
@MarkPaul Scholz is reverting to the behaviour that has served him well... make promises, refer to vague times in the future, stonewall, make more promises, report unexpected administrative or legal reasons why there needs to be further diplomatic and administrative discussion, make further promises, report unexpected administrative or legal reasons for further delays...

We've seen some very creative tactics from ScholZ and the SPD... the tanks can't be sent elsewhere because some f the parts were made by the Swiss and they won't give permission because they want to remain neutral (seriously??).

Recently the excuse has been that Germany [i](i.e.[/i] ScholZ and the SPD) don't want to be the first to give tanks... they don't want to 'go it alone'. Ironically, that position is so at odds with every other country's position that Germany is going it alone by refusing to send tanks.
@MarkPaul My problem is your usual bullshit and lies.
MarkPaul · 26-30, M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow Well, let's talk about this rationally. As someone who is has international relations experience, I'm commenting on a topic that is part of wheelhouse, if you will. In a way, I have an obligation to use my expertise when the need arises as it has here and now. Perhaps if we could focus on why you feel this professional obligation of mine cuts into your centre-of-attention craving, we could help lift you up so you see that you have no reason to feel threatened. Do you want to try? Why do you think you are so bothered by my sharing of my expertise?
Fairydust · F
The same people that want to protect the world from climates Change.

Think wars are ok 🧐🧺💰

The worlds a stage 🎪
Peril · F
@Fairydust you are very confused.
@Fairydust So the Republicans DON'T like war and it was they that ended Afghanistan? Then why do you all blame Biden for how we pulled out of Afghanistan? If Republicans hate war enough to end them...then it should have been a Republican that pulled us out? Right?
MrBrownstone · 41-45, M
I saw pictures of Ukrainian soldiers with Nazi rings on so there is that.
Fairydust · F
They murder their own people.
TheStarsareout · 56-60, M
Germany is very narrow self interested, its all about when things calm down they still have access to cheap gas from Russia and back to business trying to dominate the EU.
TheStarsareout · 56-60, M
@newjaninev2 The Germans still own the EU and France in particular
newjaninev2 · 51-55, F
@TheStarsareout It will take the Germans a while to realise the enormity of the change that they have caused by their collaboration with russia.

They have joined Hungary in betraying Western values, and will now sit on the bench with that country.

Scholz and his fellow SPD collaborators have brought Germany to a point where it will never again be trusted.
TheStarsareout · 56-60, M
@newjaninev2 They still have eveyone dancing to their tune in the EU because of the last financial crisis and the money they lent to other countries to help them out, I dont think the trust was there anyway because of the war, I have lived in Germany for many years and the Germans are very money and business oriented with all take from other countries attitude.
Foreign policy is about self interest, not morality. And it is interesting everyone is dogpiling Germany and going off on conspiracy theories and yet nobody is criticizing the USA for doing exactly the same thing, or the UK sending a single squadron (14) when hundreds would be required to be of value.


There is also the concern that all western powers need consider as well is the very likely possibility that this kit will fall into Russian hands and be reverse engineered and tech advantages being lost.

If the Leopard 2 is compromised that would leave the armour corps of pretty much 3/4 of NATO countries vulnerable.
jimjim1969 · M
How much is Russia paying Scholz to stop giving tanks to Ukraine.
wonkywinky · 51-55, M
I can understand this,to Russia,they will be the first "German"tanks on their soil for 80 years,so i can kind of get why the Germans feel its an escalation.But then again,invading Ukraine itself was an escalation so screw Putin.
Besides all the other considerations that go into this decision. Something else that might be a factor in why Germans are reluctant might have to do with Ukrainian army units using the insignia and trappings of the Waffen SS. Just a thought.

Diplomacy is a slippery ride. Its winter in Germany. Germany gets about 100% of their fuels......including heating oil....from Russia. So do you help Ukraine....or let your population freeze?
Questioning the war and US hegemony vs peace and integration with Russia never happens in Germany.
ChipmunkErnie · 70-79, M
What gets me is the media commentary re Germany's deep "pacifist values"????

 
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