Is the teaching of Jesus the teaching of Judaism?
All the disciples of Jesus were Jews. The Old Testament is taken from the Hebrew Bible. The New Testament is based mainly on Paul's writings, and Paul was a Jew. Is Christianity a Jewish sect?
This page is a permanent link to the reply below and its nested replies. See all post replies »
LordShadowfire · 46-50, M
It's a little more complicated than that.
Yeshua bar-Youssef, more popularly known as Jesus, was an itinerant rabbi, raised by members of a now-extinct feminist sect of Judaism. That's why he took personal offense at the idea that they would execute a woman for adultery, but not the man with whom she adulterated. He was also raised with a healthy skepticism toward the idea that authority was to be automatically trusted. All of this, plus the fact that he apparently didn't get along with his siblings, led to his ministry being what it was. An anti-authority message of peace and love and not getting so hung up on all the damn rules. That's why the scribes and Pharisees turned him over to the Roman government. He didn't care for the way they ran things.
As for Paul, he made things even more complicated. He may or may not have been jewish, but he was a Roman first, and he was on a mission from the Roman government to derail this new movement, because the Romans had mistakenly pegged the movement Jesus started as a threat to Roman rule. So he faked his whole conversion on the road to Damascus, just so that he could take over the church. And Paul accomplished his mission beautifully, turning Yeshua's movement into just another sect that oppressed women and sexual minorities, and didn't make way of. As an added bonus, the movement was pretty damn anti-Semitic for being Jewish.
Yeshua bar-Youssef, more popularly known as Jesus, was an itinerant rabbi, raised by members of a now-extinct feminist sect of Judaism. That's why he took personal offense at the idea that they would execute a woman for adultery, but not the man with whom she adulterated. He was also raised with a healthy skepticism toward the idea that authority was to be automatically trusted. All of this, plus the fact that he apparently didn't get along with his siblings, led to his ministry being what it was. An anti-authority message of peace and love and not getting so hung up on all the damn rules. That's why the scribes and Pharisees turned him over to the Roman government. He didn't care for the way they ran things.
As for Paul, he made things even more complicated. He may or may not have been jewish, but he was a Roman first, and he was on a mission from the Roman government to derail this new movement, because the Romans had mistakenly pegged the movement Jesus started as a threat to Roman rule. So he faked his whole conversion on the road to Damascus, just so that he could take over the church. And Paul accomplished his mission beautifully, turning Yeshua's movement into just another sect that oppressed women and sexual minorities, and didn't make way of. As an added bonus, the movement was pretty damn anti-Semitic for being Jewish.
sree251 · 41-45, M
@LordShadowfire
I maintain that Jesus neither started nor had a movement. Christianity evolved from a movement started by Jews: those who wrote the Gospels, and Paul's writings that provided the framework for the belief system of what evolved into the Nicene creed of Christianity.
What is the basis of your claim that Christianity is anti-semitic? At any rate, Christianity is the teaching of Paul and not the teaching of Jesus depicted as a Jewish rabbi, as you pointed out.
And Paul accomplished his mission beautifully, turning Yeshua's movement into just another sect that oppressed women and sexual minorities, and didn't make way of.
I maintain that Jesus neither started nor had a movement. Christianity evolved from a movement started by Jews: those who wrote the Gospels, and Paul's writings that provided the framework for the belief system of what evolved into the Nicene creed of Christianity.
As an added bonus, the movement was pretty damn anti-Semitic for being Jewish.
What is the basis of your claim that Christianity is anti-semitic? At any rate, Christianity is the teaching of Paul and not the teaching of Jesus depicted as a Jewish rabbi, as you pointed out.
LordShadowfire · 46-50, M
@sree251
I maintain that Jesus neither started nor had a movement. Christianity evolved from a movement started by Jews: those who wrote the Gospels, and Paul's writings that provided the framework for the belief system of what evolved into the Nicene creed of Christianity.
Well, you're certainly entitled to your own hypothesis. That's the fun part. What is the basis of your claim that Christianity is anti-semitic?
They literally blame the Jews for him dying.
sree251 · 41-45, M
@LordShadowfire
A hypothesis is an assumption, an idea that is proposed for the sake of argument so that it can be tested to see if it might be true. I am presenting the idea that Christianity is a Jewish theology invented by Jews for non-Jews. This particular Jewish theology, that has entrapped the gentiles, was spun by Pharisees. Is this true or not?
The focus of the Jesus story was not the assigning of blame, which stems from Judaism, and the exacting of vengeance (an eye for an eye).
Well, you're certainly entitled to your own hypothesis. That's the fun part.
A hypothesis is an assumption, an idea that is proposed for the sake of argument so that it can be tested to see if it might be true. I am presenting the idea that Christianity is a Jewish theology invented by Jews for non-Jews. This particular Jewish theology, that has entrapped the gentiles, was spun by Pharisees. Is this true or not?
They literally blame the Jews for him dying.
The focus of the Jesus story was not the assigning of blame, which stems from Judaism, and the exacting of vengeance (an eye for an eye).
LordShadowfire · 46-50, M
@sree251
A hypothesis is an assumption, an idea that is proposed for the sake of argument so that it can be tested to see if it might be true.
Good. I was afraid I wasn't using it right. I am presenting the idea that Christianity is a Jewish theology invented by Jews for non-Jews.
I think you need to read the Bible again. Because the main point of the parts Paul wrote seems to be that everybody gets a reprieve from punishment because Jesus chose to be the whipping boy. But at the same time, it's pretty clear in the writings of Paul and the other apostles that the Jews are to blame for Jesus being put in that position in the first place. And again, in the gospels, Jesus speaks pretty harshly to the Jewish leaders of his day. So I really don't see how it could be a Jewish message. That's like saying a typical post of mine in the Religion section is a Christian message, because I address Christians.
sree251 · 41-45, M
@LordShadowfire
Paul, a Jew, was the teller of the story of Jesus. Paul lived as a Pharisee and participated in the persecution and killing of the early disciples of Jesus. As a matter of fact, it is his teaching - not Jesus' - that Christians are practicing. Paul told a tall story about Jesus. He was the father of the false flag. He was the actual source from which Christian spirituality is obtained, an intentional misrepresentation of good by evil.
The entire Jesus story is a piece of Jewish work. We are in agreement on that, right? As for joining the dots, it's a head spinner. We have more pressing "Jesus' stories" to grapple with these days. They won't go away even if the US Government were to release, without redaction, all the files about JFK, 9/11, and the mind-boggling foreign policy moves of the Trump Administration.
No comment. I have not been following your exploits in the Religion section.
I think you need to read the Bible again. Because the main point of the parts Paul wrote seems to be that everybody gets a reprieve from punishment because Jesus chose to be the whipping boy.
Paul, a Jew, was the teller of the story of Jesus. Paul lived as a Pharisee and participated in the persecution and killing of the early disciples of Jesus. As a matter of fact, it is his teaching - not Jesus' - that Christians are practicing. Paul told a tall story about Jesus. He was the father of the false flag. He was the actual source from which Christian spirituality is obtained, an intentional misrepresentation of good by evil.
But at the same time, it's pretty clear in the writings of Paul and the other apostles that the Jews are to blame for Jesus being put in that position in the first place. And again, in the gospels, Jesus speaks pretty harshly to the Jewish leaders of his day. So I really don't see how it could be a Jewish message.
The entire Jesus story is a piece of Jewish work. We are in agreement on that, right? As for joining the dots, it's a head spinner. We have more pressing "Jesus' stories" to grapple with these days. They won't go away even if the US Government were to release, without redaction, all the files about JFK, 9/11, and the mind-boggling foreign policy moves of the Trump Administration.
That's like saying a typical post of mine in the Religion section is a Christian message, because I address Christians.
No comment. I have not been following your exploits in the Religion section.
LordShadowfire · 46-50, M
@sree251
Paul, a Jew, was the teller of the story of Jesus. Paul lived as a Pharisee and participated in the persecution and killing of the early disciples of Jesus. As a matter of fact, it is his teaching - not Jesus' - that Christians are practicing. Paul told a tall story about Jesus. He was the father of the false flag. He was the actual source from which Christian spirituality is obtained, an intentional misrepresentation of good by evil.
On that we agree. The thing is, he was told by the Roman government to do something about the movement started by Jesus. When killing his disciples didn't work, he moved on to his backup plan, which was to infiltrate the movement and change the message. But it was still a Roman op.The entire Jesus story is a piece of Jewish work. We are in agreement on that, right?
He was raised jewish, but it seems like he was rebelling against the religion.
sree251 · 41-45, M
@LordShadowfire
Why would you do that?
Paul didn't change Jesus message. He couldn't understand it and cooked up his own message upon which the Nicene creed of Christianity is founded.
Who was raised Jewish? Jesus? Apparently so, according to the Jews who wrote the story. As for rebelling against Judaism, that is also a Jewish concoction. The whole story from the Nativity to the Last Supper is a load of bull. There was no rebellion. Jesus' teaching escaped the Jews and went on to inspire a following of more than 2 billion people today. Following Jesus is one thing, living his teaching is quite another. Being a Christian is not the same as
being Christlike.
On that we agree.
Why would you do that?
The thing is, he was told by the Roman government to do something about the movement started by Jesus. When killing his disciples didn't work, he moved on to his backup plan, which was to infiltrate the movement and change the message. But it was still a Roman op.
Paul didn't change Jesus message. He couldn't understand it and cooked up his own message upon which the Nicene creed of Christianity is founded.
He was raised jewish, but it seems like he was rebelling against the religion.
Who was raised Jewish? Jesus? Apparently so, according to the Jews who wrote the story. As for rebelling against Judaism, that is also a Jewish concoction. The whole story from the Nativity to the Last Supper is a load of bull. There was no rebellion. Jesus' teaching escaped the Jews and went on to inspire a following of more than 2 billion people today. Following Jesus is one thing, living his teaching is quite another. Being a Christian is not the same as
being Christlike.
LordShadowfire · 46-50, M
@sree251
Paul didn't change Jesus message. He couldn't understand it and cooked up his own message upon which the Nicene creed of Christianity is founded.
No, he definitely changed it intentionally. It was still part of his mission to derail the movement, and he did exactly that.
sree251 · 41-45, M
@LordShadowfire
Change what? Paul was a Jew who understood the message of Judaism. Jesus' message invalidated Judaism's moral message of "an eye for an eye" that fuels the deadly sin of hatred that today has razed Gaza to the ground and killed more than 64,000 Palestinians in the nearly two-year war.
Jesus' message was to turn the other cheek, love your enemy, do good to those who harm you. Can any Jew in Israel today ever understand that? Not even Christians can understand it because they are following Paul's teaching, not Jesus'.
No, he definitely changed it intentionally. It was still part of his mission to derail the movement, and he did exactly that.
Change what? Paul was a Jew who understood the message of Judaism. Jesus' message invalidated Judaism's moral message of "an eye for an eye" that fuels the deadly sin of hatred that today has razed Gaza to the ground and killed more than 64,000 Palestinians in the nearly two-year war.
Jesus' message was to turn the other cheek, love your enemy, do good to those who harm you. Can any Jew in Israel today ever understand that? Not even Christians can understand it because they are following Paul's teaching, not Jesus'.
LordShadowfire · 46-50, M
@sree251 Which is why I maintain that Paul was following orders from the Roman empire and destroying the movement from within. But I suspect we will always disagree on that point, as there's no evidence either way.
But hey. This has been fun.
But hey. This has been fun.
sree251 · 41-45, M
@LordShadowfire
Hey, wait a minute. You need to clarify the role of the Roman empire and its intent.
From my reading of the Christian Bible (entirely made up of Jewish scripture), Pontius Pilate washed his hands off the sordid affair initiated against Jesus by the High Priest of Jerusalem. Pontius found nothing incriminating when Jesus said that his kingdom God promised was not of this world. The High Priest and his Jewish following were the ones the Romans were hunting down because their promised land was of this world, the same land that is being fought over by Jews in the Middle East today. Am I wrong?
But hey. This has been fun.
Hey, wait a minute. You need to clarify the role of the Roman empire and its intent.
Which is why I maintain that Paul was following orders from the Roman empire and destroying the movement from within. But I suspect we will always disagree on that point, as there's no evidence either way.
From my reading of the Christian Bible (entirely made up of Jewish scripture), Pontius Pilate washed his hands off the sordid affair initiated against Jesus by the High Priest of Jerusalem. Pontius found nothing incriminating when Jesus said that his kingdom God promised was not of this world. The High Priest and his Jewish following were the ones the Romans were hunting down because their promised land was of this world, the same land that is being fought over by Jews in the Middle East today. Am I wrong?
LordShadowfire · 46-50, M
@sree251
Hey, wait a minute. You need to clarify the role of the Roman empire and its intent.
I think I made it pretty clear. The Roman empire felt that the Christian movement, by which I mean the actual movement Yeshua instituted, was a threat, because he was reported as claiming he was the king of the Jews. Therefore, they felt that the movement needed to be ended by any means necessary.
sree251 · 41-45, M
@LordShadowfire
First of all, it was the Jewish establishment that branded the multitude of apostate Jews attracted to Jesus' teaching as insurrectionists against Judea's Roman governor, Pontius Pilate. Those Jews certainly were rebels, not against Roman rule but against Jewish religious authority whose moral teaching on Judaism was questioned by Jesus. This is similar to Netanyahu telling Donald Trump that Muslim resistance is against US presence in the Middle East.
The Romans were a lot more savvy at statecraft than Americans. Pontius Pilate did not order the eradication of Jesus' followers. He even washed his hands off the case brought by Jewish religious authority against Jesus. To get the High Priest of Jerusalem off his back, he granted his request for Jesus crucifixion.
I think I made it pretty clear. The Roman empire felt that the Christian movement, by which I mean the actual movement Yeshua instituted, was a threat, because he was reported as claiming he was the king of the Jews.
First of all, it was the Jewish establishment that branded the multitude of apostate Jews attracted to Jesus' teaching as insurrectionists against Judea's Roman governor, Pontius Pilate. Those Jews certainly were rebels, not against Roman rule but against Jewish religious authority whose moral teaching on Judaism was questioned by Jesus. This is similar to Netanyahu telling Donald Trump that Muslim resistance is against US presence in the Middle East.
Therefore, they felt that the movement needed to be ended by any means necessary.
The Romans were a lot more savvy at statecraft than Americans. Pontius Pilate did not order the eradication of Jesus' followers. He even washed his hands off the case brought by Jewish religious authority against Jesus. To get the High Priest of Jerusalem off his back, he granted his request for Jesus crucifixion.