Here's an actual question: If God wants to save as many people as possible, why has he not PROVED beyond any doubt that he is real?

@cerealguy
God knows what the proof is and could supply it if he desired.

@Pikachu is that your answer to the question?

@cerealguy

Yup.
I don't know what would cause someone to believe beyond a doubt. But god would.

@Pikachu and how do you respond to the fact that people have the full free will to reject it and will use it?

@cerealguy

I'd say that your premise is false.
People don't choose what they believe. People become convinced that something is true or false.

You can prove this to yourself by right now by choosing to believe that Santa is real and delivers presents to all the good girls and boys.
Were you successful?
Of course you weren't.

God would necessarily know what would convince every person that he is real. From there, people can and will exercise their full free will to choose whether or not to love and worship him.

@Pikachu
So you basically reject the concept of selective perception?
Like confirmation bias and halo effects?
Selective exposure? Etc.?
Like, people preliminarily reject ideas and don't reallt honestly consider everything proposed to them through and through. We're a judgemental creature by nature. Heck, you probably already prepared a response to this instead of just agreeing, don't you think?


This is funny

You assume people will honestly and sincerely consider each and every single argument or statement proposed to them.

My first question would be if you've ever done that yourself

Second would be if you really think this is how everyone works. That they are married to the truth and nothing but the truth. That there isn't anything else like conformity, ego, insincerity, arrogance, and more holding someone back from the truth. Perhaps you realize that these things matter in believing something for many people in this modern era.

If not, I challenge you with all the sincerity you've got to come up with the greatest proofs and reasonings you can muster for God's existence and actually consider them and then believe in them. Tell me if you find no resistance from things that are of emotional basis rather than pure rational consideration.

And if you can find any personal things like your honor as an atheist being on the line, tell me. Your own reputation does have weight unless you're truly above or below other people's considerations and thoughts.

@cerealguy


Not at all. You've given examples of how people become convinced of something and how they are resistant to contradictory information.
But these phenomena occur after one has become convinced of something.


In addition to being funny, i hope you recognized the point being made.
I'd actually like to know your answer. Did you manage to decide you do in fact believe Santa is real?


lol nah dude. I assume that god almighty in his omnipotent glory could unambiguously prove himself to every single person because by virtue of his omnipotence and omniscience, he could not fail to do so if it were his intent.
His fundamental nature would make it impossible not to be convinced no matter the ego or emotional resistance or cognitive dissonance.

You keep asking how i would prove it to everyone's satisfaction....why? Am i all powerful and all knowing?
I feel like this misses the point: If god wanted to then god could. Maybe your view of god is that he does not possess these omni properties?

@Pikachu Not always. Some people simply do not want something to be a certain way even if they don't know the truth behind it. They come into something wanting it to be a certain way sometimes. You're an atheist. I'll quote an atheist philosopher you probably know. Take Thomas Nagel's words:


It is clear that he mentions he is at a stage where he merely hopes God is not real and does not want God to be real. We all know that truth is independent of our hopes and wants. He is not convinced God is not real. Yet still, without being convinced, the guy is against God being real.

Right here is where you clearly see that you also have accepted the clearly known concepts above regarding selectivity. Therefore, you should understand that this would apply to pretty much any message. You know people deny proofs and people easily can be against something without being convinced of it. When someone wants to believe something, this is where you find selective exposure and selective perception take action. Many times, people will just simply deny without giving due and fair consideration process. Funnily enough, people also get convinced by things blindly all the time, too. And then they will place a barrier up from that ehich challenges those beliefs.

Even further would be that we all know that some people have preconcieved biases that can be wrong. We agree here. Right?


Now, turning to Santa.
No. My answer is that Santa is not real. You were right and guessed it right. Sorry for actually missing to share the response sooner btw 😪
Looking back, I thought it would have been more appropriate to have shared this in my previous response with a "obviously not"

Can we agree that it is appropriate to disregard believing in clearly false things? Or things that are not important at all?

Agreed. You just have yet to agree that people can and will reject it if they choose to. Via avenues and concepts pre-established in our convo

Here is the real issue. Why do you run with this assumption?
What can you justify this conclusion with? I disagree and say that this premise is totally false. The fundamental nature of things can be ignored or overlooked or underestimated. Is your argument that there is no way for people to overlook the importance of things? Namely God? Have you seen yourself? Me? Humans? All of us?
We're constantly growing and screwing stuff up and learning the importance of things as we go along. This is an insignia of humanity. Maintaining humbleness, humility, and forever adjusting what we consider important and not. Defeating our egos is not easy. Our decisionmaking isn't divorced from who we are and our nature

So that you recognize that people will dismiss you. Some people may not even give you the time of day to even HEAR you. Some people will see where things are going and automatically shut down openminded cooperation in order to preserve their beliefs. You know this. You dealt with flat Earthers and Christians. Maybe Jews. Maybe MORE. Haven't you seen this enough?

This is projecting your beliefs onto mine now 😪
I know you know better than this. Perhaps God could grant you a piece of His impeccable knowledge to let you know that people have free will and to help you connect that selective exposure and selective perception can be done to anyone. Including the messengers of God. But the point is to discuss if you can get that people can reject the truth, even if it is clear

@cerealguy

All that to say that people can be stubborn or biased in what convinces them of a particular belief.
Yup.
But no one is able to flip a switch and decide to believe something that they do not believe. You can want something to be true and so your confirmation bias will lead you to reinforce that belief. But ain't no one holding a belief for reasons that seem good to them and then just making a conscious decision flip.
Hence the Santa example.
We can indeed agree that it is appropriate to disregard believing in clearly false things but that's not the point of the example.
It's not about whether or not you think the proposition is absurd but to demonstrate that you are not capable of choosing to be convinced by that which you find unconvincing.


Because in this mythology god is all powerful. He cannot do logically inconsistent things like making a square triangle....Everything else he can do.
It seems to me that's actually the fundamental disagreement we're having here. You appear think god could fail to convince someone he was real. Based on the character, i don't see how that would be possible.



I was just trying to be clear on your view of the god of Abraham in-universe for the reasons stated above.

@Pikachu This is within the process of convincing. We're totally in agreement. People however have issues getting to this point or they have issues with how to properly be convinced, sometimes. (being convinced for the wrong reasons)

Not at all. People don't honestly and fairly consider the messages granted to them all the time

And some people are arrogant and heedless at the face of God because they're high on the fact that they have a choice

And I hear you. But when you ask why people are not all believing in God, knowing about how free will, ego, etc. and so much more are real, it just kinda dodges some connected concepts that impact things

@cerealguy

But i haven't asked why some people disbelieve god.
I've asked why, if it were god's priority to save as many as possible, he would not make his existence known unequivocally to everyone.
And you've just agreed that such a thing would necessarily be within his power.

@Pikachu I agree entirely

Then this is going to go to you asking why everyone is not saved

Then I will explain to you that many people don't have their priorities straight and many people don't care about God and some reject God's message out of arrogance

And then we're going to get stuck because you want to conclude that people wouldn't disbelieve in God having been shown a clear sign


We've been through this same conversation many times. It all boils down to if people are honest, consistent, and sincere or not. There is no use arguing with someone who is unrelenting and rigid (a.k.a. very closed minded and bot-like with how they folloe a programmed path

@cerealguy


Nope. Please don't try to use your psychic powers of prediction lol
I haven't asked why everyone isn't saved.
I've asked why, if it were god's priority to save as many as possible, he would not make his existence known unequivocally to everyone.
And you've just agreed that such a thing would necessarily be within his power.

Sincerity and ego and honesty and open-mindedness....that all can come after we know god is real.
Is it so hard for you to acknowledge that you can't think of a good reason why god wouldn't make his existence known if indeed he wanted as many people as possible to be saved?

@Pikachu you get my point gurl 😂

You're assuming he has not made His existence known unequivocally to everyone. That's something for you to consider, sincerely. How about you stop asking me and honestly think about what signs are sent to you and what message?

This has to be the world's most backwards series of premises to get to a conclusion ever. If I'm insincere, let my ego destroy my honest evaluation of something, am dishonest, and closed-minded, then I am LITERALLY DESTROYING the foundational faculties to appropriate my values and commit self-adjustments in my judgements, understandings, perspective, and beliefs. TL;DR: I'm choosing to close off any input into me, even if this input could be the truth.

And THIS, my fellow, is the entire problem. Congratulations on leading it to becoming this clear. You can't believe in something if you're not honestly thinking about it or listening to it to assess it. You can't be closed-minded, insincere, dishonest, and let your ego corrupt your acceptance of the truth and then try to blame God why you don't accept it. This is the exact point where the onus and blame befalls on you. You must first be honest, sincere, putting your ego aside, and open-minded. These things are not divorced from us but we're to blame if we don't balance these things out appropriately. So at least let's make sure we agree that it's first our responsibility to keep these components of us under control and in orderly fashion when it comes to honest discussions of this nature so that we may learn properly and engage honestly. Otherwise, what's the point of ever asking a single question ever?


And to still answer sincerely:
If you want the sign, if you really want the message, if you want the verbatim words of Allah, read the Qur'an and satiate your heart with the honorable message that the Creator of the heavens, skies, and Earth, and you has sent down as a lesson, reasoning, guidance, and truth to mankind. If you read that entire book, with honesty, sincerity, having put your arrogance or ego to the side, and with an open mind to truly consider its contents, I have no doubt that you'll find your answers and you'll make your choices.

But from here on out, let's make it clearly known, I do not like talking to anyone who is insincere, dishonest, egotistical/selfish, arrogant, or (exceedingly) closed-minded. (Because closed mindedness DOES have its place in encompassing and adjusting to the truth)

@cerealguy


lol yes i am assuming that and since we agreed that it is appropriate to disregard believing in clearly false things, i'll disregard the notion that he has.
Why is it clearly false?
Because the word "unequivocal" means that there is no doubt. Well....there appears to be a lot of doubt out there still so...🤷‍♀️


Sorry, you've misunderstood my meaning which is fair because i gave no context.
I mean that after god shows unequivocally that he is real (which we agree is within his power to do) people may then choose to love and/or worship him and make that choice for good or bad reasons and influences.

@cerealguy as is their choice

@Pikachu I have met many atheists who expend great effort in trying to get the faithful to prove to them of his existence but it’s not necessary. I have my faith and I will never be turned from God through a lack of proof. My faith in my father will always make me stronger than those who Denny him or those that have known him and turned from him, my faith will not be shaken.

@needsmilk808


I'm sure you have but that's not what this thread is about. Nor am i interested in trying to turn you from god.
This is a criticism i have of the story and i'm here to discuss it with those who are interested in doing so in good faith.