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The ultimate penalty for sinners is to spend eternity in Hell. Many struggle with wrapping their mind around the concept of Hell. But let me say this,

God is love. Wouldn't you say that the love of God passes all understanding? Ephesians 3:17-19 says, "That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God."

God's wrath is the same way, It passes all understanding. No one has love like God has. God is the ultimate in love and He is also the ultimate in vengeance. True love must also hate evil and sin, otherwise it is a fake love. Romans 12:9 says, "Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good."

So, if you can't grasp or fully wrap your mind around the love of God because it passes all understanding, if you can't fully relate to the love of God or if you can't come close to having that kind of love in your heart, why would you expect to understand or have the level of vengance in your heart that God has in His heart. The foolish atheist would say, "Well, I wouldn't send all of those people to Hell." Yeah, but you wouldn't die on the cross for people either! You wouldn't go to Hell for anyone either. But yet Jesus Christ died on the cross for us, He took the upon Himself the sins of the world and took the whole brunt of the wrath God the father poured out on the Son and He went to Hell for 3 days and 3 nights. That is an amount of love that I can't comprehend because I don't love anyone to that level, and if you are honest, you would say the same thing.

If we can't grasp the love of God, why would we think that we can grasp the wrath of God. God's wrath is also on this other level that we can't process. God is so far beyond us on His love and His justice. Vengeance is not necessarily a bad thing because it stems from God's righteousness. So, if you try to process Hell and the wrath of God just like you struggle to process the love of God, because you would find it hard to believe that God has forgiven someone like Jeffrey Dahmer and that Jeffrey Dahmer is in Heaven right now because He ended up believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and getting saved.

Please realize and accept that Number 1. "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Romans 3:23

2. "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

3. "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

and do as Acts 16:30-31 says, "And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

The pure Gospel of Romans 3:24-26 - "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 says, "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Once you believe on the only one who defeated death and hell and rose from the dead - The Lord Jesus Christ - put all of your trust in Him and what He did for you on the cross to get you into Heaven, the death, the burial and the resurrection, then you are saved in that very moment and will be going to Heaven, a place of unfathomable beauty, peace and joy.

Revelation 21:1-5 - And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Revelation 21:21-25 - And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass. And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

John 14:2 - In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

2 Peter 3:13 - Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 22:1-5 - And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
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DocSavage · M
Seems pretty unfair. Life is finite, does it seem reasonable to punish a person for endless time ?
A merciful god would give them a second chance after a few centuries at least.
SW-User
@DocSavage Every time you wake up is another chance. Every heartbeat. Every breath.
Adstar · 56-60, M
@DocSavage If you say it is unfair you have to use the same logic with Gods gift of eternal paradise.. A unearned gift of endless time... But i don't see anyone whining about Gods unmerited eternal gift of paradise..
DocSavage · M
@SW-User
That would have to be before you’re dead however, wouldn’t it ?
Those are the rules, right. We’re talking afterwards.
SW-User
@DocSavage considering the only requirement is accepting the gift, I’d say whatever time you’re given is perfectly reasonable. It’s not like He’s asking us to fulfill the entire Mosaic Law anymore
@SW-User

How is an infinite punishment for a finite transgression reasonable?
How is is being tortured forever because you find yourself unconvinced reasonable?
SW-User
@Pikachu Look man I didn’t make the rules
@SW-User

That's no excuse to accept them uncritically.

So again, How is an infinite punishment for a finite transgression reasonable?
How is is being tortured forever because you find yourself unconvinced reasonable?
SW-User
@Pikachu God will never send anybody to hell. If man goes to hell, he goes by his own free choice.

Hell was created for Satan and his angels, not for man. God never meant that a man should go there. God has done everything in his power to keep you out, even giving his own son to die on a cross to keep you out.

When God made you, he made you a free moral agent. You can live any kind of life you want to. You can live a good life, or a bad life. You can obey God’s laws, or you can break them. You can shake your fist in Gods face and there’s nothing He can do, because when He creates you, he gave you a gift of free choice.

You have a right to resist and reject God. But the Bible says in spite of our rebellion and rejection, he loves you. He loves you so much he gave his son to die for your sins.

And when Christ died on that cross, we know one thing - He took the hell and punishment and Judgement of God that we deserve because of our sin.

Nobody has to go to hell - our debt has been paid.
@SW-User

[quote]If man goes to hell, he goes by his own free choice.[/quote]

Let's test that hypothesis.

Right here, right now make the [i]free choice[/i] that you are convinced that Allah is the one true god.
Or maybe that's too charged for you. So if you can't do that then make the [i]free choice[/i] right here, right now that you are in fact convinced that Santa is real and delivers presents to children at Christmas.

Were you able to do that? Yes or no?
SW-User
@Pikachu The difference between what you’re saying and what I’m saying is this:

You said yourself you’re testing a hypothesis. What I’ve told you is the most important truth you can accept.
@SW-User

[quote]What I’ve told you is the most important truth you can accept.[/quote]

But how do i accept it when i'm simply not convinced that it's the truth?
That's the point of the little test i set for you: To demonstrate that one cannot choose to be convinced by that which they find unconvincing, truth or no.

So answer my directly and honestly. Were you able to make the free choice that you are convinced that Santa is real? Yes or no?

Answer me that and we'll carry on the discussion from there.
SW-User
@Pikachu it’s not my job to convince you one way or the other - to engage in meaningless dialogue. My responsibility is that of a witness - testify to what I have seen.

It is your job to decide for yourself over the course of your life. However your beliefs to not determine the truth.

I’ve told you the truth - now you get to decide.
Make it a good day 😁
@SW-User

[quote]to engage in meaningless dialogue.[/quote]

That's rude.
It's not meaningless . It is a fundamentally crucial point to the idea that one chooses not to accept god.

I think you immediately recognized that you could not yourself make the "free choice" to decide to believe something that you didn't believe.
I think that cognitive dissonance is causing you to attempt to abort and devalue the discussion so that you don't have to continue examining the conflicts it raises.
Well that's your choice and i can't force you to be thoughtful.

It's ok that you have conviction in your faith but don't be dishonest in how you witness...otherwise you're doing more harm than good.

So i'll ask you once more to answer the question i set to you.
If you find yourself incapable or unwilling then please don't feel the need to participate any further in what you consider to be a meaningless dialogue.
DocSavage · M
@SW-User
Then you can agree they unreasonable.
SW-User
@DocSavage An offense against an Infinite God deserves an infinite punishment. Let's also look at this from another angle. A primary reason why Hell must be eternal is that the only condition that matters to man is the present condition. For instance, suppose you live in a frigid area of the world. Suppose that you had heat for the past ten years, but this year catastrophe has struck your area and left you without any heat in the depths of winter. You are freezing, shivering, etc. Will the fact that you had heat for the last ten years make you happy while you are freezing this winter? No. It won’t help you at all. All that matters is that you don’t have heat this winter. It’s true to say that all that matters to you is your present condition. Likewise, suppose that you did not have heat for the past ten years, but finally got it this year. Will the fact that you did not have heat last year, and the year before, etc. make you unhappy while you sit comfortably and warmly now? No. All that matters is that you are warm and comfortable now. All that matters is your present condition. Therefore, if the pains of Hell did end at some point, then at that very point the condition of the person would be free of punishment. He would suffer no pain at all. Since all that matters to man is the present condition, the end result would be that man would not be punished at all. Thus, when it is considered deeply, it is true to say that a punishment that is not eternal is, in the end, actually no real punishment at all. For if it ends at any point, then the final condition of man (which is all that will matter to him) is one without punishment.
DocSavage · M
@SW-User
So, you’re saying god is a sadist . A merciful god would at least give you the hope of redemption. No wonder Lucifer rebelled against him. He really is a cruel and selfish bastard.
SW-User
@DocSavage note for the future, using the phrase, “so you’re saying…” is a social cue that lets others know you’re about to twist their words into something that fits your agenda better than what they actually said. Hope this helps
@SW-User

[quote]Thus, when it is considered deeply, it is true to say that a punishment that is not eternal is, in the end, actually no real punishment at al[/quote]

That depends what one considers to be the purpose of punishment.
Is it torture out of vengeance or does it serve a purpose?

Usually a punishment is meant to teach a lesson. It's meant to correct behaviour and at worst be proportional to the crime committed.

There is no [i]finite[/i] crime which can be considered proportional to an [i]infinite[/i] punishment.
There is no lesson to be learned, just pain for pain's sake.

So i think you need to justify the initial assertion that[i] " An offense against an Infinite God deserves an infinite punishment"[/i]

Why?
@SW-User

[quote] is a social cue that lets others know you’re about to twist their words into something that fits your agenda[/quote]

Ignoring challenging questions and pretending they haven't been asked is also a pretty potent social cue.
Glass houses, my dude😉
SW-User
@Pikachu [quote]challenging[/quote]
You misspelled childish and meaningless
@SW-User

lol mmm deflection noted.
Becoming aggressive in the face of frustration is a big red flag. Hope this helps😉
DocSavage · M
@SW-User
Be honest, doesn’t an eternity in Hell seem unnecessarily cruel ? With out any chance of redemption. Never ending pain and suffering.
Not even we humans are that heartless.
Our lust for justice and revenge may go beyond the grave, but with a few extreme exceptions, do you know anyone personally that deserves such a fate ? But even the absolute worse can get mercy by brown nosing Jesus ?
How else can you translate the interpretation ?
DocSavage · M
@SW-User
What sin ? Some of the theist here claim were still being judged for Adam’s screw up.. others because we started to stop playing by god’s impossibly strict rules. And choose a different path.
Adam and Eve never existed. They never fell from grace, and the human race doesn’t need a redeemer. It’s a fairytale. Humans are not sinners either. We’re far from perfect, but the general population isn’t blood thirsty savages either. If god gave us free will, then all he can do is sit back and watch. Because he can’t have it both ways.