Not even close

@ArishMell Sorry? I don't follow you

@ArishMell So you have no idea who Dr David Berlinski is? Google is your friend. You can also listen to him on Youtube. You might want to know that Berlinski is an ethnic Jew who does not believe in God. He believes it is possible that God exists or that He doesn't exist equally. He is just pointing out that the atheists among us base their beliefs on faith every bit as much as the theists do.

@hippyjoe1955 My objection is not to his beliefs but to his apparently helping keep a needless and meaningless division, fermenting.

He does have a point shown by Walter - in questioning the worth of "secularism". Now, I don't think being secular or ecumenical a problem, especially in countries that host all beliefs and none, but it is right to examine whether these have been used to create problems.

@ArishMell And secularism has led to Nazis and the Holodomor and the great leap forward and.....

@hippyjoe1955 Not sure I see a link there, since adherence to rigid religious orthodoxy has also been a cowardly excuse for plenty of evil down the ages, but there is no logical reason why one cannot be good irrespective of any religion or none.

"Secular" states are simply ones not ruled by a set religion; but allowing any religion and importantly, allowing freedom to choose. That does rule out theocratic tyrannies, so nations like Iran or Saudi Arabia can hardly be described as secular.

The Nazis were "secular" in so far as they did not hold any specific religious belief as the nationally-approved one, and they came to some sort of unhealthy accommodation with the Church; but they persecuted their victims on cultural and racial more than religious grounds.

"Great leaps forward" were characteristic phrases from Communist states, but those can hardly be called secular either. They are determinedly anti-religious instead.

@ArishMell Define good. Ever notice how it coincides with the Christian belief? Strange eh? Sadly the farther we move away from the Christian understanding of the world the greater degeneracy emerges.

@hippyjoe1955 I don't link being good or bad with any specific religion. There are good and bad people of all faiths and none.

@ArishMell You don't get around much do you? Go to a communist country where the religion is atheism Or a Buddhist country or a Muslim country or even a country where animism is common and then tell me about how all religions are equal. You can even go so far as to look at a country where Roman Catholicism is dominant and compare it to where evangelical Christianity is dominant.

@hippyjoe1955 I did not say that! I said there are good and bad people - irrespective of any religious beliefs they might hold.

Though I accept too many of the bad ones use their beliefs - any faith or sect, doubt or denial - as their excuse for treating others wrongly. That includes all sects of Christianity too, be it a major one like Roman Catholicism or some tacky little local evangelist cult.

@ArishMell There is no one good but God according to Jesus. Which pretty much lines up with everything we witness on this planet.

@hippyjoe1955 I am not saying we've not made a right mess of things between us world-wide, but that's a very bleak view of humanity!

I thought Jesus' message was one of love and joy; not hatred, or we being God's biggest error. Maybe I was taught about Christianity by the wrong sort of Christians. Bring back the stake!

@ArishMell if humans were good then Christ died for nothing.

@hippyjoe1955 Oh, I do know that message; but blaming everyone for the wrongs of some...? There are good, decent people in the world, probably the majority, and they manage that whether they follow any religion or none!


I gave up on religion firstly by finding it incredible, later by learning how all too easily it is used and abused for bad ends; but I do try to understand what religions have to say. I also realised more recently that all almost religions known, including long-dead ones, have similar themes and reasons for their existence at heart. Their surrounding ideas are largely imagination, romanticism and at sect level, mere details.

One result being that for any belief - including agnosticism and atheism - to try to enforce some sort of self-appointed theological correctness or moral superiority over others is as illogical as it is childish; and really, rather cowardly.

If a belief has any strength it is in being personally right for those who accept it by their own volition, certainly not by selfish coercion be that at family or State level; but who also accept other beliefs being just as right for their own followers.

@ArishMell Your standpoint works on the assumption that a divine creator/ sustainer does not exist. That is in fact an act of faith on your part; for as our friend Berlinsky says, no-one has ever proved such a creator doesn't exist. You have to believe so, if that's your wish.

As for "religion", I would agree with you that religion is destructive and has been causing untold strife and countless deaths among men for many thousands of years.

The last thing I would submit to is a system of ideas, a religious philosophy with rules of conduct. Horrible, and cringeworthy. I will not "do this, do that, refrain from doing something else", just because a religion wants me to.

What counts most in this life is our relationships

What would you say if I said that I KNOW God exists, because I have a relationship with him? tried and tested over many decades of my life (since childhood, in fact). A relationship in which he has shown himself to be perfectly in line with the teachings of Jesus - which, by the way, go well beyond the "love your neighbour and be a good boy" delusion.

Obviously, I can "prove" nothing to you. God (to man's chagrin) can obviously NOT be "proved," because if he could, he wouldn't be God. That's a very elementary level of logic.

So, am I deluded?

@WalterF No it does not. Whether I believe in God or not does not stop me questioning why there "has" to be, in some quarters, all these pointless attempts to drive a huge wedge between two totally different things - science and religion - as if they have to be sworn enemies.

And worse, in some cases, to base that chalk-and-cheese division on the idea that there is only one religion that counts anyway, when patently there is not!

I am not clear of Berlinski's own opinion; but your quotes shows that whichever side of the argument is attacking the other, he points to an artificial us-and-them divide that is is meaningless and illogical as it is childish.

Of course you are not deluded. You can no more prove God exists than an atheist can prove He does not. It is literally an act of faith; but it has nothing do to with science so why the mud-slinging Dr. Berlinski at least warns of?

I do agree with your point about relationships though!