Not even close

@hippyjoe1955 Oh, I do know that message; but blaming everyone for the wrongs of some...? There are good, decent people in the world, probably the majority, and they manage that whether they follow any religion or none!


I gave up on religion firstly by finding it incredible, later by learning how all too easily it is used and abused for bad ends; but I do try to understand what religion[b]s[/b] have to say. I also realised more recently that all almost religions known, including long-dead ones, have similar themes and reasons for their existence at heart. Their surrounding ideas are largely imagination, romanticism and at sect level, mere details.

One result being that for any belief - including agnosticism and atheism - to try to enforce some sort of self-appointed theological correctness or moral superiority over others is as illogical as it is childish; and really, rather cowardly.

If a belief has any strength it is in being personally right for those who accept it by their own volition, certainly not by selfish coercion be that at family or State level; but who also accept [i]other[/i] beliefs being just as right for [i]their[/i] own followers.

@ArishMell Your standpoint works on the assumption that a divine creator/ sustainer does not exist. That is in fact an act of faith on your part; for as our friend Berlinsky says, no-one has ever proved such a creator doesn't exist. You have to believe so, if that's your wish.

As for "religion", I would agree with you that religion is destructive and has been causing untold strife and countless deaths among men for many thousands of years.

The last thing I would submit to is a system of ideas, a religious philosophy with rules of conduct. Horrible, and cringeworthy. I will not "do this, do that, refrain from doing something else", just because a religion wants me to.

What counts most in this life is our relationships

What would you say if I said that I KNOW God exists, because I have a relationship with him? tried and tested over many decades of my life (since childhood, in fact). A relationship in which he has shown himself to be perfectly in line with the teachings of Jesus - which, by the way, go well beyond the "love your neighbour and be a good boy" delusion.

Obviously, I can "prove" nothing to you. God (to man's chagrin) can obviously NOT be "proved," because if he could, he wouldn't be God. That's a very elementary level of logic.

So, am I deluded?

@WalterF No it does not. Whether I believe in God or not does not stop me questioning why there "has" to be, in some quarters, all these pointless attempts to drive a huge wedge between two totally different things - science and religion - as if they have to be sworn enemies.

And worse, in some cases, to base that chalk-and-cheese division on the idea that there is only one religion that counts anyway, when patently there is not!

I am not clear of Berlinski's own opinion; but your quotes shows that whichever side of the argument is attacking the other, he points to an artificial us-and-them divide that is is meaningless and illogical as it is childish.

Of course you are not deluded. You can no more prove God exists than an atheist can prove He does not. It is literally an act of faith; but it has nothing do to with science so why the mud-slinging Dr. Berlinski at least warns of?

I do agree with your point about relationships though!

@NortiusMaximus The Christian God is without cause. He is Eternal. No beginning and no end. Infinite, Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnipresent. Spirit beyond spirits, Being beyond beings. From and By and Through Whom all things that exist exist. Your silly idea of a universal burp seems rather anemic doesn't it. Such silliness you atheists tie yourself into when you try to deny the Self Evident Creator we can Yahweh (I AM).

@hippyjoe1955 So the only difference between a quantum singularity and your god is that, for no discernable reason, you've endowed the latter with intelligence. It makes no sense to deny the possibilty of an eternal simple singularity while claiming a much more complex, intelligent being is eternal. For you hypothesis to have any validity at all, such a being must, itself, have had an even greater creator.

What caused your god to create the universe? You expect me to be able to predict random events so you ought to be able to answer that simple question - unless you apply double standards. I see, as is common among christians, you've had to resort to silly insults. Obviously you don't have anything of value to offer.

@NortiusMaximus Imagine yourself as an infinite being. All that can be is a potential within you. There is no light but there is no dark. There is no wet but there is no dry. There is no matter but there is no void. All but are potentials within you. So you decide to set things in order. You spread out the universe within you. You separate light from dark you separate matter from void you form the stars in all their glory and put planets and moons around the stars. You separate the wet from the dry and form dry land. In the air and in the water you create life forms and on the dry land you create creatures that crawl and walk and in the soil you create other life forms that burrow and dig. Then in your infinite wisdom you create mankind giving him like yourself a will and a mind and a body. Yes his will is very limited and his mental capacity is limited and his body is flesh and blood while yours is spirit but none the less he is in your likeness. Why did you do all of that? Because you decided to. How can your creation know that you exist? Because it is impossible for all that is to exist by accident. The universal constants are too finely tuned. The atomic structures are too complex and the life forms are made in such a way as to be completely impossible to have formed by themselves. All the worlds scientists in all the best laboratories can not come close to forming life and they have a pattern to follow. Even more frustrating to them is even given a nonliving life form they and not bring it to life. A simple cell that just died can not be resuscitated. All these impossibilities are proof beyond proof that the universe is not just a cosmic burp in the singularity. it is planned with infinite wisdom and patience and called good because it achieves its purpose.