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Is Christian morality superior or inferior to secular morality? Why?

It seems to me that Christian morality ultimately falls back on what god wants, whether or not that is for the well being of humans, while secular morality is based upon what is the in interest of a human's well being.

It seems to me that morality which is centered around what is in the best interest of people is necessarily superior to one which as a foundation relies on what a god wants or (more realistically) what people reckon their god wants.

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Abstraction · 61-69, M

No, I would suggest you don't understand Christian morality. I speak as someone who genuinely understands this topic at a deeper level. It's a complete misstatement but probably half the Christians who respond would not describe it the way I'm about to - which I acknowledge is disturbing, but teaching in many churches can be seriously shallow. Christian morality, rightly understood, is in the best interest of people. It isn't following a set of rules imposed on you (counter-intuitively - and I'm 100% serious); it isn't about doing what God wants when you want to do something else (but to clarify it's also not about being a selfish @#$#); it isn't about not thinking through and owning it as though you are controlled by someone else, blindly following rules (no, really). I acknowledge that the way most people have understood it is the opposite of this, and I acknowledge the weakness of that.
yes, I need to expound but I'm working and so I'll have to come back to this. I hope it makes you curious. I think you know I think this stuff through and actually live what I say or I don't speak up.

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Diotrephes · 70-79, M

@Abstraction That passage is BS. Compare it to the threat in John 15:6 (CEV) = "6 If you don't stay joined to me, you will be thrown away. You will be like dry branches that are gathered up and burned in a fire."

Abstraction · 61-69, M

@Pikachu I understand the essence of what you presented as this: humanistic morality is greater than christian morality because christian morality is based on whatever God says, whereas humanistic morality is based on the needs of human beings.
I have disagreed. I'm arguing this is a false dichotomy and it actually misrepresents Christian morality.
The views I am presenting are broadly-based and find expression over hundreds of years - probably preceding Aquinas, I'd have to think. You often appear to have fun arguing with the unread. But christian moral philosophers, theologians and others who have tackled morality and social ethics would immediately qualify the statements you make in your question and disagree with your premise, so your argument to them would be a bit of a straw man. How? Let me clear: there is no dichotomy between 'morality that is based on the interests of humans' and Christian morality. They explore it from both moral philosophies or ethics studies and theological exposition - and come to the same conclusion. So... these studies demonstrate that humanistic morality is not superior. I don't mind calling it a draw. I am not aware of any essential human value that isn't found in Christian morality (and from Christian perspective doesn't also find its origin in the being of God as revealed in Christ.) The OT passages many of them address but that's a really big topic.

Pikachu

@Abstraction

Well the problem is that it is people who interpret what is moral from a Biblical perspective so even if you reckon that Jesus would have no problematic moral guidelines, Christian morality still depends on what Christians reckon god wants.

For example, Christians have reckoned that god made us male and female and that only male and female should be joined in marriage.
Using Christian morality, it is not right that two men or two women should be able to partake in this sacrament.
Using secular morality there is absolutely no reason why two consenting adults should not enjoy the same rights as their fellows.

How can that be interpreted in any other way than secular morality being superior to Christian morality?

astrosandorbits · 26-30, M

I cant necessarily say one is superior over the other for sure. The christian argument would perhaps be that because it is what God wants, it benefits humans more than what we could do/want for ourselves using our own moral compass. Even on things we perhaps disagree with or dont understand. I am not a Christian, but i have heard this argument before: We do not know best what is good and bad for us; only God does.
A big one to me is what is just? Was it just for the god in the old testament to kill numerous tribes using the israelites and ordering the men to kill the children and women? Justice and what is just is important in my opinion to issues that are especially sensitive (i.e., the death penalty)
Another big question goes back to the philosophical argument of morality itself: Is morality objective or subjective/relative?
I do believe in an objective moral code. I dont know all the answers of course... but i do think a lot of good moral sentiments come from the Bible, and they have become fundamental building blocks of various western societies. Of course not everything weve adopted in our societies is good or ideal, but many things are.

In the end, it is hard to say that when it is centered on what people want it is better. Simply because we want many things we shouldnt want (and we know better).

Idk it's a good question, and i could take my response in so many directions. I havent even scratched the surface. If this was a question on an exam, id qualify the statement 😅🤟

Pikachu

@astrosandorbits

because it is what God wants, it benefits humans more than what we could do/want for ourselves using our own moral compass

Indeed. But that demands relying on faith that what appears to be monstrous is actually benevolence.
I'm not too comfortable with that.
It's the theological equivalent of "Trust me, bro". lol

A big one to me is what is just?

Agreed.
And i think that's a key point with regard to the superiority/inferiority of Christian morality.
Is it just to murder men, women and children so that you can live where they're living? Is it just to punish the son for the crimes of the father? Is it just to kill otherwise innocent people on the basis that they have associated with the guilty party?
Well under the Christian moral system the answer is "Yes" on all counts because these are examples of god's justice but in any other context most of us would agree that this does not represent justice.

Diotrephes · 70-79, M

@astrosandorbits You're forgetting that according to the biblical fairy tale, God said in Genesis 3:22 (NKJV) = "22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—

So, humans are just as smart and knowledgeable about good and evil as the God creature is. Therefore, we no longer need his input on those issues.

newjaninev2 · 56-60, F

Religion is neither the source nor the arbiter of morality.

Moral behaviour is that which, to the greatest possible extent, preserves or enhances the wellbeing of any organism capable of otherwise suffering.

Pikachu

@newjaninev2

I think that's a pretty good definition. Certainly a more useful definition than "What i reckon god wants".

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newjaninev2 · 56-60, F

@Ferise1 Well, I have been to Vegas 😂
Why do you ask?

REMsleep · 41-45, F

As usual this type of argument can have no clear winner from a purely academic perspective because the frame of reference is different depending on if you believe in an all powerful all knowing being or you do not.

As a Christian I would argue that all morality at its core is designed by God. Of course there will be cultural differences and somethings which are more moral and less so in various places. We believe that even the moral code of all humans is given by God.

Also is seems very lacking and dismissive to put Christian morality into a tiny corner of just being " what a god wants".
That is not the Christian view on Christian morality.
And last but not least living life in fullness and abundance from sin and within the grace of the almighty God is always in the best intrest of all people.

Pikachu

@REMsleep

Also is seems very lacking and dismissive to put Christian morality into a tiny corner of just being " what a god wants".
That is not the Christian view on Christian morality.

Is it not?
I don't intend to be dismissive. I'm earnestly representing the situation as i see it.
If you see something as immoral but god commands it, do you concede your moral judgement and submit to god?
Yes or no?
Feel free to elaborate on either answer.

Of course there are are standards of morality that the Christian and the secularist can both agree on but at the end of the day, the Christian is required to accept any action of, or command by god to take precedence even if that appears to run contrary to their own well being or the well being of another human.
Yes or no?
Feel free to elaborate on either answer.

REMsleep · 41-45, F

@Pikachu It would be nearly impossible. I only say nearly because Im too tired to try to rack my brain for any senario where it could be possible to believe that God wants us to do something which is immoral.
If a believing individual thinks that God is requiring something immoral he or she is not understanding things or perhaps is not living within the will of God and so has turned to secular ideology.

Its not possible for a Christian to believe that anything of God is immoral and if it is then God would not be God because God is perfect and does not abide with immorality at all.

God's will is perfect and perfect for us because he is God.

Pikachu

@REMsleep

Its not possible for a Christian to believe that anything of God is immoral ... God's will is perfect and perfect for us because he is God

That's my point and that's why i argue that secular morality is superior.
If Christian morality dictates that what god wants (or what they believe god wants) is by definition moral then they necessarily subordinate what they would otherwise consider to be moral to that standard.
By contrast, secular morality would maintain that a moral command is moral and an immoral command is immoral no matter who is giving the order.

I only say nearly because Im too tired to try to rack my brain for any senario where it could be possible to believe that God wants us to do something which is immoral.

Well let me help you out:

If your president or you husband or your king or your friend told you to murder your child to show them that you were loyal to them, that would be an immoral command.
No one can reasonably disagree with that assessment.
Even if that person did not intend for you to carry out that act but wanted you to prove your loyalty by showing your willingness to murder your child, that would be an immoral way to test loyalty.
No one can reasonably disagree with that assessment.
This represents a secular morality.

But in Genesis, god did command Abraham to murder his child and under Christian morality that was (if god had really intended for Abraham to kill Isaac) a morally correct command and (if god did not intend for Abraham to kill Isaac) a morally correct test of loyalty.

So, since under any other context we would recognize the immoral nature of this command/test and since under Christian morality this command/test is necessarily moral...how can one reasonably argue that Christian morality is not inferior to secular morality?

Dainbramadge · 56-60, M

That's the thing that always bothered me about the "be good and go to heaven" thing.
If I read the book and followed the rules without believing on the deity why don't I qualify as well?
I thought the goal was to make better acting people not get them to believe in ghosts.

Pikachu

@Dainbramadge

Yeah i've has that conversation with believers before. They claim that god really wants to save us...and yet his priority still appears to be that we worship him.

canusernamebemyusername · M

I have heard christians claim it is superior because it is absolute and objective. Not realizing it is based on God's subjective wants. Not even needs. Just sheet want.
So it is neither objective or even useful.

Pikachu

@canusernamebemyusername

Even less than that: It's based on what humans reckon god wants.

Crazywaterspring · 61-69, M

Do what you want and find a scripture to justify it? Fake as a four dollar bill.

Pikachu

@Crazywaterspring

Well there definitely is a lot of that going on in Christian circles.

BlueSkyKing · M

The words 'moral' and 'morality' are not found in the Bible.

Pikachu

@BlueSkyKing

Well neither is "genocide" but that's still in the Bible😜

Roundandroundwego · 61-69

No
Morality can be judged by its results.

Pikachu

@Roundandroundwego

What do you mean?

ChipmunkErnie · 70-79, M

The end result is what counts, but I suppose you could say it's inferior in that it so often relies on fear of divine punishment as opposed to an innate belief in a moral system.

Pikachu

@ChipmunkErnie

Yeah i'd say in that sense Christian morality is inferior. If you don't do evil only because you fear punishment then you're not a good person.

RedBaron · M

Different strokes for different folks.

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RedBaron · M

@Pikachu It's not necessary for every one of your questions to generate deep BS debate. Get over yourself. You're just as full of it as the rest of us.

Pikachu

@RedBaron

lol oh do calm your indignant, self-righteous tits...
No one forced you to enter the thread simply to refuse to engage with the subject matter.

You've lost my interest.

RedBaron · M

@Pikachu Just as no one forced you to ask the question. As my answer indicated, you lost my interest from the get-go. But at least you know that name-calling comes in handy when you have nothing intelligent to say.