I have always been an atheist

@hippyjoe1955 Have you looked into more religions than just the Christian one? You're a Christian if I remember correctly right? So why'd you land on not Buddhism or Islam or the many other religions that the world has to offer?

@hippyjoe1955 Thing with all these, Christianity included, is that they all vary widely on how to look at them. Buddhism can be seen as having no gods, but it could also be seen as having as many gods as there are people. So it's all in how one interprets the written texts and the verbal claims made by the groups of followers of that religion that you encounter (because it's impossible to know what each and every one of them think).

@froggtongue The point is that I was seeking the ONE God not multiple Gods. Only One God created the world. The gods of many religions are simply representations of the created order.

@froggtongue No Christianity is not from Judaism. They are as different as Judaism and Islam. Jesus Himself condemned Judaism. He called its practitioners the sons of the devil.

@hippyjoe1955 Ah. So you had in mind that you wanted to find only one god and sought that regardless how the claim was backed up. Well Christianity certainly does (well, maybe arguably does) present that.
I am unfamiliar with where Jesus calls Jews the sons of the Devil. But have you considered Matthew 5:17-20? Jesus certainly seems to hold the laws of Judaism in high regard and that it should be followed.
Thing is, you can make just about any case for any point of view in a book as huge as the Christian's bible. There are so many differing points of views in there. Would you share with us any passages which support your view on Jesus condemning Judaism?

@froggtongue Those are not the laws of Judaism. Look up John 8:44. You would have to have a deeper understanding of Judaism than what is commonly taught to understand how big the difference is between Jesus and Judaism. When His disciples harvested grain to eat on the Sabbath Jesus said that He was Lord of the Sabbath and that the Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath. Jesus also eliminated the dietary laws and the laws about tithing.

@hippyjoe1955 So the book of Matthew and the book of John have two completely different views on what Christ wanted. This is why it's so messy to piece it together and how one person can think one thing and find something to support that idea while someone else can think the total opposite and find text that supports that other idea.

@froggtongue Not at all. Go back and read Matthew. It doesn't say what you think it says. The law was only valid until it was fulfilled.

@hippyjoe1955 Okay. To play the Devil's advocate here, allow me to emphasis a portion. This is the NIV reading of Matthew 5:18 "For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

So we have two parts; two conditions. The first condition mentioned is as long as heaven and earth have not disappeared, the Law must be kept. The second condition is that until everything is accomplished, the smallest letter and the least stroke of a pen not disappear.

So now you have to debate one, what is the "everything is accomplished" meaning. Then with whatever you say that means, you have to then consider what it means to have both 'everything accomplished' and heaven and earth still remaining. Overall, it's a huge challenge based on linguistics and how people read and think about what words and sentences mean. That's why you have so many people thinking different things. It's not so cut and dry as a single person thinks. If you say it is, then someone else will say it is, but in the opposite direction of what you say. You can both be right in both your own point of views.

@froggtongue The church has always said that the meaning was that the purpose of the Law was fulfilled in Jesus. Yes there are a few cranks out there that want to keep the law but of course they can't. The temple made by man doesn't exist anymore so the whole sacrificial system mandated in the law can not be carried out. That and the birth records have been destroyed so it is impossible to ascertain who should be a priest let alone a high priest. According to the Jewish historian Josephus the sacrifices offered were not accepted after the death of Jesus so there is that part too. Paul explained why we are dead to the law in most of his writings. That must have been a real stretch for him as he was so into being a pharisee.

@hippyjoe1955 "The church" was never one single church. There have always been huge debates even among the same groups of people who claim to follow the same person or practice. And there have been so many different groups! So one group of people say the purpose of the Law was fulfilled. A different group says the Law was never able to be fulfilled and that's why Jesus had to become the sacrifice. So again, different people believing in different things, most often based on what their community believed. So was Paul believe that the purpose of the Law was fulfilled, or that the Law could never have been fulfilled?

This shows that the debate is endless. Maybe I'll return to this another time, but I have other things I have to do. I'm happy that we're having a civil conversation about this.

@froggtongue The church did have a common belief system that was carefully guarded. It is called the Faith Once Received. The church has always held that the law was abolished on the Cross and those who tried to refute that were called the Judaizers. We Christians are warned about them in the Scripture. Paul went so far as to wish those who pushed circumcision would go so far as to emasculate themselves.

@froggtongue I think I know what Jesus said which is not followed by modern day Jews who deny his divinity. 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me'. They have denied this truth through generations and somehow don't think this simple Gospel message pertains to them. Otherwise they would call themselves Christians.

@leowander It is kind of funny when you look at Judaism as practised even at the time of Christ. It holds that being born of a 'Jewish' mother makes you a child of God like no one else on earth except of course fellow Jews. Jesus cut that nonsense short when he told a Jewish leader that "You must be born again". IOW your birth into an ethnicity or a religion has nothing to do with your being right with God. Only a changed heart and mind will do that.

@Gusman is this discussion alright? I know we veered quite a bit from the original intent of your post. I have in mind to bring some of the discussion back that direction eventually.

@froggtongue It has not got out of hand.
Many posts dealing with peoples views on religion rapidly deteriorate into vitriol and invective.
If it does deteriorate then I will close it down.
Discussion without malice is rather simple and a mature way to put a point across.