SethGreene531 · M
Another tragic loss in what has been a heartbreaking year in aviation. Taking two very young pilots, just starting their formal airline careers.
A veer to right was noted by some, possibly to avoid the crossing vehicle.
Data at time of impact indicates a roll-out speed of apprx. 114 knots, after heavy breaking; still well outside of high speed taxiway parameters.
Thrust reverse was deployed.
In all, the crew may have anticipated the impending crash.
The sheer mass of a 75,000 lb RJ, at speed, assured destruction of both the flight deck, and fire truck.
Requiring up to 3500- 4500 ft to stop depending on weight and runway conditions; the RJ was 4000 ft from its touchdown point, at time of impact.
Automated Weather: METAR KLGA 240351Z 33016G25KT 10SM FEW060 02/M07 A3021 RMK AO2 PK WND 34028/0257 SLP229 T00221067
FICON (FIELD [RUNWAY]) surface condition report from KLGA:
03/323 NOTAMN Q) KZNY/QMRXX/IV/NBO/A/000/999/4046N07352W005 A) KLGA B) 2603230018 C) 2603240018 E) RWY 04 FICON 5/5/5 100 PCT WET OBS AT 2603230018.
5/5/5 = Good. With negligible braking degradation, on 100% wet runway with less than 1/8 inch of standing water.
A mistake by the tower it seems.
But "plan continuation error (mission fixation)" is a real and frequent component affecting both ground, and air crews. As is loss of situational awareness, and task saturation.
As mentioned by others here, the sight picture on the tarmac at night is a dizzy kaleidoscope of colored lights, and moving objects. Further compounded by weather.
There's a lot going on at once. On the comms, and out the window.
Losing the "big picture'' is terrifyingly easy. For both flight crew, ground crew, ATC, & Ground Management Control.
The mandate to repeat back hold-short & runway crossing clearances, has reduced - but not eliminated - runway incursions.
Despite robust Safety Management Systems protocols, digital conflict resolution modelling, and surface movement analysis technology like ASD & ASDE-X.
Along with RWSL or stop-bar lighting, Frangible energy absorbing runway intersection barriers may be useful.
RWSL - radar activated barrier lights are the best automated safeguard, but nothing beats "Trust but verify". Cleared to cross by ATC, you still visually clear both the approach & departure ends of a runway; then again, before releasing the brakes. Always!
Best practice is to request a repeat of any crossing clearance.
Some airports require crossing vehicles to switch radio frequency from Ground Control to tower 1st. Enabling equal situational awareness to service vehicles, and the controlling authority.
While flying remains safer than driving; some would argue one loss is too many. Especially the bereaved families.
Perhaps priortizing realistic arrival and departure volumes, over revenue, is a starting point. Especially at older airports with short runway overruns and converging control zones.
Washintgton DCA, NY LaGuardia, & Chicago's Midway - MDW, come to mind.
Top of list:
- Traffic Management Studies and Initiatives, Predictive Flow Management and Capping, AI integration.
-Mandate ATC as an essential service WITH pay, during goverment shutdowns.
-Priortize chronic ATC staffing shortages, and update aging equipment infrastructure.
-Extended paid stress leave, and counselling services.
Along with eliminating:
- Reduced approach crossing clearances between aircraft
- SIRO/LHSO (Simultaneauos Intersecting Runway Operations), and
Circling Approaches (Circle-to-Land) in VMC or IMC
- A Review of : LUAW (Line-up & wait) practices at peak volume hours
A veer to right was noted by some, possibly to avoid the crossing vehicle.
Data at time of impact indicates a roll-out speed of apprx. 114 knots, after heavy breaking; still well outside of high speed taxiway parameters.
Thrust reverse was deployed.
In all, the crew may have anticipated the impending crash.
The sheer mass of a 75,000 lb RJ, at speed, assured destruction of both the flight deck, and fire truck.
Requiring up to 3500- 4500 ft to stop depending on weight and runway conditions; the RJ was 4000 ft from its touchdown point, at time of impact.
Automated Weather: METAR KLGA 240351Z 33016G25KT 10SM FEW060 02/M07 A3021 RMK AO2 PK WND 34028/0257 SLP229 T00221067
FICON (FIELD [RUNWAY]) surface condition report from KLGA:
03/323 NOTAMN Q) KZNY/QMRXX/IV/NBO/A/000/999/4046N07352W005 A) KLGA B) 2603230018 C) 2603240018 E) RWY 04 FICON 5/5/5 100 PCT WET OBS AT 2603230018.
5/5/5 = Good. With negligible braking degradation, on 100% wet runway with less than 1/8 inch of standing water.
A mistake by the tower it seems.
But "plan continuation error (mission fixation)" is a real and frequent component affecting both ground, and air crews. As is loss of situational awareness, and task saturation.
As mentioned by others here, the sight picture on the tarmac at night is a dizzy kaleidoscope of colored lights, and moving objects. Further compounded by weather.
There's a lot going on at once. On the comms, and out the window.
Losing the "big picture'' is terrifyingly easy. For both flight crew, ground crew, ATC, & Ground Management Control.
The mandate to repeat back hold-short & runway crossing clearances, has reduced - but not eliminated - runway incursions.
Despite robust Safety Management Systems protocols, digital conflict resolution modelling, and surface movement analysis technology like ASD & ASDE-X.
Along with RWSL or stop-bar lighting, Frangible energy absorbing runway intersection barriers may be useful.
RWSL - radar activated barrier lights are the best automated safeguard, but nothing beats "Trust but verify". Cleared to cross by ATC, you still visually clear both the approach & departure ends of a runway; then again, before releasing the brakes. Always!
Best practice is to request a repeat of any crossing clearance.
Some airports require crossing vehicles to switch radio frequency from Ground Control to tower 1st. Enabling equal situational awareness to service vehicles, and the controlling authority.
While flying remains safer than driving; some would argue one loss is too many. Especially the bereaved families.
Perhaps priortizing realistic arrival and departure volumes, over revenue, is a starting point. Especially at older airports with short runway overruns and converging control zones.
Washintgton DCA, NY LaGuardia, & Chicago's Midway - MDW, come to mind.
Top of list:
- Traffic Management Studies and Initiatives, Predictive Flow Management and Capping, AI integration.
-Mandate ATC as an essential service WITH pay, during goverment shutdowns.
-Priortize chronic ATC staffing shortages, and update aging equipment infrastructure.
-Extended paid stress leave, and counselling services.
Along with eliminating:
- Reduced approach crossing clearances between aircraft
- SIRO/LHSO (Simultaneauos Intersecting Runway Operations), and
Circling Approaches (Circle-to-Land) in VMC or IMC
- A Review of : LUAW (Line-up & wait) practices at peak volume hours
pdockal · 56-60, M
fire engines have blind spots
I've worked in an airport (runway light repair)
Planes are everywhere
Taxing
Landing
Taking off
Luggage movers
Maintenance vehicles
Plane stairs
You couldn't tell where the noise off the engine was coming from
We relied on the directions from the tower
I've worked in an airport (runway light repair)
Planes are everywhere
Taxing
Landing
Taking off
Luggage movers
Maintenance vehicles
Plane stairs
You couldn't tell where the noise off the engine was coming from
We relied on the directions from the tower
samueltyler2 · 80-89, M
@H1raeth i was under the impression they could not see anyth8ng.
jackjones68 · 51-55, M
View 5 more replies »
jackjones68 · 51-55, M
@pdockal Its not about what happened, but your presidents reaction. So matter of fact.
samueltyler2 · 80-89, M
@jackjones68 he has not an ounce of empathy in his body.
pdockal · 56-60, M
HumanEarth · F
samueltyler2 · 80-89, M
