Does Biden's trip to Ukraine send a bad or the wrong message?
President Biden just went on a trip to Ukraine. We have sent more aid to Ukraine than pretty much every other country combined. And now Biden makes a trip there to “help cheer” the people and to let them know we are there for them. Yet at home he has not spent nearly as much as we have sent to Ukraine as we have on border control. Additionally East Palestine Ohio is a disaster area and Biden couldn’t bother to go there and only sent FEMA when Trump said he was going to show up. Is he sending the wrong message to the people of the USA with his trip to Ukraine? I’ll just correct one of your many errors and not wait around for a response. Mike DeWine, the governor of Ohio, initially told Biden that FEMA and the EPA were not needed to help out. Then he changed his mind.
Oh – and another thing, I don’t think Biden’s trip to Ukraine sends a bad message at all. It, let me see how to put this, says we are standing with an ally that is fighting tooth and nail against an aggressive invader. There’s no Russian military invasion on the southern border of the USA. The southern border does not need more funding. And Biden offered whatever help Ohio needed. The Republican Ohio governor declined Federal assistance, to provide a speck of pretext for Republican propaganda that Biden was somehow neglecting Ohio, which you seem to have swallowed. WOW really? Forget about the Middle East already? Biden’s trip there is a God send! Make a stand again Trumps buddy Putin. I can’t believe Trump has the audacity to bring his fat ass to Ohio NOW after he practically derailed the train himself. He should be on his way to prison. And Mike DeWine Is about as incompetent as they come. But for some reason Ohioans seem to like voting incumbents that are clueless to what’s really needed there. What bad message? That we are against Putin sending in soldiers to rape, kill, torture, freeze, and starve, Ukrainian citizens, to take Ukrainian land? Are you ok with what Putin is doing? Are you saying you just don’t like the timing? He might have been planning this since before the Ohio tragedy. Going to Ukraine doesn’t prevent Biden from addressing immigration at our border. I don’t see how those things are competing.
In Ukraine people are being massacred. I think the US once again looks strong and taking a leadership role among the allied countries. That seems like a good thing to me. My only worry is Putin ramping up WW3. Like Pelosi in Taiwan a bit ago. In a way, as an American, I enjoy thumbing our nose blatantly in defense of the underdog. On the other hand, I wouldn’t try to escalate a situation where we could lose.
I keep seeing Libertarian posts such as ‘Ukraine is not the 51st state.’ So there is definately a portion of Americans who are more ‘America first’ and think we’ve done enough over there and other countries should take the lead. I have very mixed feelings. Part of me wanted US and other allied forces to start lining up on Ukraine’s border as soon as Russia started doing it. I can see how that could backfire though.
Then, when Russia went in, I was baffled by the US only providing defensive weaponry, I felt maybe we should arm with offensive weapons so the Ukrainian soldiers have a better chance. The argument was similar to what you stated, worrying about starting WWIII. Biden the past year basically held back because of that worry from what I can tell. I can’t help wondering what if allied Europe had sent a lot of forces to fight off Russia before Russia even came in. I think that would have been dramatic and effective. The problem is oil of course. Germany was still buying oil from Russia. I don’t understand why that couldn’t have been overcome faster. I’m not sure what the military is like in other European countries. That may be true, but what would have then happened is either it would have escalated to WW3 or Putin would have retreated, but still had most of his forces from which he could create wedges in NATO, plot and scheme with China, South America, India, Pakistan, Middle East, Baltic countries etc. The slow approach is almost certainly smarter—like boiling the frog. Putin’s fully committed and can’t back out, but he can’t win either. When this is over, There will be zero appetite in Russia and zero ability for imperialist USSR 2.0 ambitions. I basically agree with what you wrote, but it gnaws at me that possibly Putin could have saved face before anyone fired a shot if he saw troops lining up on the Ukraine side. He could have said, “we are just protecting our border, we weren’t going to attack, look at these ridiculous countries.” He probably wouldn’t have taken that opportunity though. He’s too driven.
Plus, he could have twisted it to make Ukraine and the allies into the aggressor. That’s the biggest negative I can see in regards to the messaging with my plan, setting aside the biggest real negative is people losing life and limb and all other suffering we are seeing.
Biden’s trip to Ukraine sends a very good message. It shows Ukraine, NATO, Putin and the world that the United States still stands squarely on the side of truth against falsehood, freedom against totalitarianism and civilisation against barbarism. The East Palestine train derailment and its aftermath is in a quite different category and to compare the two shows how hopelessly out of touch with reality you are(or pretend to be). In your rush to blame Trump, did you actually read the link you posted about Trump rolling back the Obama era rules? Let me help you since it is right at the beginning of the article: Even if this safety rule had still been in effect, it would not have applied to the Norfolk Southern train that derailed in East Palestine, Ohio, because it was not categorized as a high-hazard cargo train.
That is an interesting question to touch on. It isn’t the people living on the border. They have to deal with people stealing their stuff, drug dealers threatening them and all sorts of other things. If they are intercepted, they are met by Border Control but they are told to release them. If they are sent to “sanctuary cities” which are always run by Democrats, they are initially welcomed until it becomes inconvenient for them. I guess it is Biden and Harris welcoming them since it is their policies that have led to the massive influx. The money spent on Ukraine is a drop in the bucket, far as overall spending goes.
Sure, more money should be spent on domestic issues. Especially healthcare.
But Biden going to Ukraine doesn’t send a bad message at all.
In fact, until Trump and his supporters go to prison for their Election Lies, there are no relative bad signals. Except for our lack of progress in prosecuting the traitors. Furthermore the Pentagon as a whole spends 70 times the amount per year we’ve spent on Ukraine.
I have my doubts about the value of our defense of Ukraine, myself. What if it’s a lost cause? What if Russia’s takeover is inevitable and we’re only delaying it by throwing billions of dollars away? I also never really liked Ukraine to begin with due to its Nazi problem. (But then again, they did elect a Jewish president, so the Nazi problem isn’t as deep as one might fear).
America wastes money all over the place on both liberal causes and conservative causes, as well as plain old corruption, and our longstanding protection of the filthiest richest people there are.
We also spend a lot of money protecting Israel, and they have universal health care. So basically we are paying for the healthcare of Israelis while ignoring the healthcare of Americans. So I do agree with the validity of your point.
But the focus on Ukraine is really out of context, if one is worried about overall waste. And if Trump and his pal’s hadn’t scrapped the advanced break requirements for trains there probably wouldn’t be a disaster in Ohio to worry about You said this,. Part of this statement was a link to a site that said specifically that this had nothing to do with East Palestine. You were fear-mongering trying to blame Trump and deflect for Biden. You. Were. Wrong. You can say it….except you really can’t. Now you are trying to address the regulations you cited as if they are still pertinent to East Palestine….deflect, deflect, deflect. I even challenged you to show me the train derailments that happened because those regulations were removed and you couldn’t do it. So now you are down to speculation. Here’s an answer for you: Since nothing has happened since Trump rolled them back, I’m gonna say your entire speculation is foolish efforts to refuse to say you were wrong. The ability to shape the laws of physics and engineering to maintain your preconceived ideology is truly a thing to marvel at. So weakening the requirements for train brakes has an inconclusive effect on the likelihood of future train derailments, because the one that did derail without the improved brakes was carrying hazardous chemicals and not flammable materials to which the requirement would have applied. We cannot be certain if there is an increased likelihood or not of future train derailments as such… That and, well, it was a mechanical failure (wheel overheated) and nothing to do with the braking system. You know…facts. You are focusing on “it was hazardous material so the regulation would have helped!!!” Except it wouldn’t. The train was not long enough. The hazardous material did not rise to the level of “highly hazardous” outlined in the regulation. There were several aspects of this train and this accident that would have excluded it from being covered whether Biden, Trump or Obama were in office. What failed in East Palestine was mechanical. What failed in East Palestine was that Biden didn’t care. Yes, I know, DeWine said initially that he didn’t need FEMA help. But that doesn’t mean they couldn’t have sent evaluators and geared up for contingencies in case they were needed. It doesn’t mean that Biden couldn’t have shown up to show his support for Americans. Whether they are asking for help or not is insignificant. Whether they are a red state or not is insignificant. Biden showing up shows he is there for the people if they need him. From a political aspect, it would even be politically advantageous for him to show up when the governor is saying he doesn’t need help. It would put political pressure on the governor. As for the question you say I derailed, the question as I saw it was based on bogus assumptions. It assumed that just because someone had accused Trump of something that it was automatic that he had done it. I pointed out that flaw in the question. I did, however, state that I was a firm believer in one set of laws for all, not one for you and I and one for politicians. But we all know that isn’t reality too. The derailment started when everyone commenced to try convincing me that Russia Collusion was real, that J6 was insurrection, that he really did everything the whistleblower claimed on the phone call with Zelenskyy, etc. Again, crimes they swore he committed and yet….well…not backed up by facts. My first answer pointed out the flaw in your question and still gave an answer to it. You and the rest derailed it trying to shout me down. Whether they are asking for help or not is insignificant. Whether they are a red state or not is insignificant. Biden showing up shows he is there for the people if they need him. From a political aspect, it would even be politically advantageous for him to show up when the governor is saying he doesn’t need help. It would put political pressure on the governor. As for the question you say I derailed, the question as I saw it was based on bogus assumptions. It assumed that just because someone had accused Trump of something that it was automatic that he had done it. I pointed out that flaw in the question. I did, however, state that I was a firm believer in one set of laws for all, not one for you and I and one for politicians. But we all know that isn’t reality too. The derailment started when everyone commenced to try convincing me that Russia Collusion was real, that J6 was insurrection, that he really did everything the whistleblower claimed on the phone call with Zelenskyy, etc. Again, crimes they swore he committed and yet….well…not backed up by facts. My first answer pointed out the flaw in your question and still gave an answer to it. You and the rest derailed it trying to shout me down. This was the first time in US history where a sitting president traveled to an active war zone without US military ;presence in the country. If you don’t think that sends a crystal clear message to Russia, Ukraine, NATO allies, China, India, the Middle East and the citizens of the US then you obviously haven’t thought about It enough.
”...he is not trying to get the two sides to sit down together to end it.”
Okay, I’ll lead you to the answer you won’t want to admit. Let’s start with the fake news that he was in an active war zone. He went to Kyiv. Probably the closest Ukrainian city at the front was Bakhmut. That is some 360 miles away. To put that in perspective, if the war front was in NYC, would you say that visiting Charleston WV was considered the active war zone? Not likely. So the claim he was in an active war zone is exaggeration at the very least. More like Political theater. “SEE! Joe Biden was in an active war zone! Whatta guy!”. But fools on the left eat it up. Point number one that it was political theater and media optics. On to number 2. So what did Biden accomplish by going to Ukraine? He didn’t fight. He didn’t lead forces into battle. He didn’t address our troops (since there aren’t many there; there are some despite your claims). He was there for 5 hours and managed to speak with Zelenskyy. Since Zelenskyy was in Kyiv you should admit it wasn’t a war zone. He smartly exited war zones as they came to where he was. He was out there boldly which tells you he had nothing to fear…not a war zone. So what was the point of the visit? To send a message? That is political posturing and media optics by definition.
So he was there for political posturing and media optics. Plain and simply. Once again you are wrong. Not that I expect you to admit it. Though I have to admit you didn’t arm me with a citation that proved your error in the first paragraph.
Nor should he be! Any ceasefire right now is simply a recipe for future conflict and there's some big trouble brewing ahead. The entire country of Ukraine is a war zone,where he was wasn’t under fire at that moment, and Biden was there to show the world your country stands with Ukraine.
Maybe he should have paid a visit to Ohio to show those people the federal government stands with them as well. Does his visit paint a bad message and is sending out the wrong message, well only to extreme fright wingers the rest of us certainly don’t think so. And discussion and debate are not bad things. Differing opinions allow us to talk through them.
Oh – and another thing, I don’t think Biden’s trip to Ukraine sends a bad message at all. It, let me see how to put this, says we are standing with an ally that is fighting tooth and nail against an aggressive invader. There’s no Russian military invasion on the southern border of the USA. The southern border does not need more funding. And Biden offered whatever help Ohio needed. The Republican Ohio governor declined Federal assistance, to provide a speck of pretext for Republican propaganda that Biden was somehow neglecting Ohio, which you seem to have swallowed. WOW really? Forget about the Middle East already? Biden’s trip there is a God send! Make a stand again Trumps buddy Putin. I can’t believe Trump has the audacity to bring his fat ass to Ohio NOW after he practically derailed the train himself. He should be on his way to prison. And Mike DeWine Is about as incompetent as they come. But for some reason Ohioans seem to like voting incumbents that are clueless to what’s really needed there. What bad message? That we are against Putin sending in soldiers to rape, kill, torture, freeze, and starve, Ukrainian citizens, to take Ukrainian land? Are you ok with what Putin is doing? Are you saying you just don’t like the timing? He might have been planning this since before the Ohio tragedy. Going to Ukraine doesn’t prevent Biden from addressing immigration at our border. I don’t see how those things are competing.
In Ukraine people are being massacred. I think the US once again looks strong and taking a leadership role among the allied countries. That seems like a good thing to me. My only worry is Putin ramping up WW3. Like Pelosi in Taiwan a bit ago. In a way, as an American, I enjoy thumbing our nose blatantly in defense of the underdog. On the other hand, I wouldn’t try to escalate a situation where we could lose.
I keep seeing Libertarian posts such as ‘Ukraine is not the 51st state.’ So there is definately a portion of Americans who are more ‘America first’ and think we’ve done enough over there and other countries should take the lead. I have very mixed feelings. Part of me wanted US and other allied forces to start lining up on Ukraine’s border as soon as Russia started doing it. I can see how that could backfire though.
Then, when Russia went in, I was baffled by the US only providing defensive weaponry, I felt maybe we should arm with offensive weapons so the Ukrainian soldiers have a better chance. The argument was similar to what you stated, worrying about starting WWIII. Biden the past year basically held back because of that worry from what I can tell. I can’t help wondering what if allied Europe had sent a lot of forces to fight off Russia before Russia even came in. I think that would have been dramatic and effective. The problem is oil of course. Germany was still buying oil from Russia. I don’t understand why that couldn’t have been overcome faster. I’m not sure what the military is like in other European countries. That may be true, but what would have then happened is either it would have escalated to WW3 or Putin would have retreated, but still had most of his forces from which he could create wedges in NATO, plot and scheme with China, South America, India, Pakistan, Middle East, Baltic countries etc. The slow approach is almost certainly smarter—like boiling the frog. Putin’s fully committed and can’t back out, but he can’t win either. When this is over, There will be zero appetite in Russia and zero ability for imperialist USSR 2.0 ambitions. I basically agree with what you wrote, but it gnaws at me that possibly Putin could have saved face before anyone fired a shot if he saw troops lining up on the Ukraine side. He could have said, “we are just protecting our border, we weren’t going to attack, look at these ridiculous countries.” He probably wouldn’t have taken that opportunity though. He’s too driven.
Plus, he could have twisted it to make Ukraine and the allies into the aggressor. That’s the biggest negative I can see in regards to the messaging with my plan, setting aside the biggest real negative is people losing life and limb and all other suffering we are seeing.
Biden’s trip to Ukraine sends a very good message. It shows Ukraine, NATO, Putin and the world that the United States still stands squarely on the side of truth against falsehood, freedom against totalitarianism and civilisation against barbarism. The East Palestine train derailment and its aftermath is in a quite different category and to compare the two shows how hopelessly out of touch with reality you are(or pretend to be). In your rush to blame Trump, did you actually read the link you posted about Trump rolling back the Obama era rules? Let me help you since it is right at the beginning of the article: Even if this safety rule had still been in effect, it would not have applied to the Norfolk Southern train that derailed in East Palestine, Ohio, because it was not categorized as a high-hazard cargo train.
That is an interesting question to touch on. It isn’t the people living on the border. They have to deal with people stealing their stuff, drug dealers threatening them and all sorts of other things. If they are intercepted, they are met by Border Control but they are told to release them. If they are sent to “sanctuary cities” which are always run by Democrats, they are initially welcomed until it becomes inconvenient for them. I guess it is Biden and Harris welcoming them since it is their policies that have led to the massive influx. The money spent on Ukraine is a drop in the bucket, far as overall spending goes.
Sure, more money should be spent on domestic issues. Especially healthcare.
But Biden going to Ukraine doesn’t send a bad message at all.
In fact, until Trump and his supporters go to prison for their Election Lies, there are no relative bad signals. Except for our lack of progress in prosecuting the traitors. Furthermore the Pentagon as a whole spends 70 times the amount per year we’ve spent on Ukraine.
I have my doubts about the value of our defense of Ukraine, myself. What if it’s a lost cause? What if Russia’s takeover is inevitable and we’re only delaying it by throwing billions of dollars away? I also never really liked Ukraine to begin with due to its Nazi problem. (But then again, they did elect a Jewish president, so the Nazi problem isn’t as deep as one might fear).
America wastes money all over the place on both liberal causes and conservative causes, as well as plain old corruption, and our longstanding protection of the filthiest richest people there are.
We also spend a lot of money protecting Israel, and they have universal health care. So basically we are paying for the healthcare of Israelis while ignoring the healthcare of Americans. So I do agree with the validity of your point.
But the focus on Ukraine is really out of context, if one is worried about overall waste. And if Trump and his pal’s hadn’t scrapped the advanced break requirements for trains there probably wouldn’t be a disaster in Ohio to worry about You said this,. Part of this statement was a link to a site that said specifically that this had nothing to do with East Palestine. You were fear-mongering trying to blame Trump and deflect for Biden. You. Were. Wrong. You can say it….except you really can’t. Now you are trying to address the regulations you cited as if they are still pertinent to East Palestine….deflect, deflect, deflect. I even challenged you to show me the train derailments that happened because those regulations were removed and you couldn’t do it. So now you are down to speculation. Here’s an answer for you: Since nothing has happened since Trump rolled them back, I’m gonna say your entire speculation is foolish efforts to refuse to say you were wrong. The ability to shape the laws of physics and engineering to maintain your preconceived ideology is truly a thing to marvel at. So weakening the requirements for train brakes has an inconclusive effect on the likelihood of future train derailments, because the one that did derail without the improved brakes was carrying hazardous chemicals and not flammable materials to which the requirement would have applied. We cannot be certain if there is an increased likelihood or not of future train derailments as such… That and, well, it was a mechanical failure (wheel overheated) and nothing to do with the braking system. You know…facts. You are focusing on “it was hazardous material so the regulation would have helped!!!” Except it wouldn’t. The train was not long enough. The hazardous material did not rise to the level of “highly hazardous” outlined in the regulation. There were several aspects of this train and this accident that would have excluded it from being covered whether Biden, Trump or Obama were in office. What failed in East Palestine was mechanical. What failed in East Palestine was that Biden didn’t care. Yes, I know, DeWine said initially that he didn’t need FEMA help. But that doesn’t mean they couldn’t have sent evaluators and geared up for contingencies in case they were needed. It doesn’t mean that Biden couldn’t have shown up to show his support for Americans. Whether they are asking for help or not is insignificant. Whether they are a red state or not is insignificant. Biden showing up shows he is there for the people if they need him. From a political aspect, it would even be politically advantageous for him to show up when the governor is saying he doesn’t need help. It would put political pressure on the governor. As for the question you say I derailed, the question as I saw it was based on bogus assumptions. It assumed that just because someone had accused Trump of something that it was automatic that he had done it. I pointed out that flaw in the question. I did, however, state that I was a firm believer in one set of laws for all, not one for you and I and one for politicians. But we all know that isn’t reality too. The derailment started when everyone commenced to try convincing me that Russia Collusion was real, that J6 was insurrection, that he really did everything the whistleblower claimed on the phone call with Zelenskyy, etc. Again, crimes they swore he committed and yet….well…not backed up by facts. My first answer pointed out the flaw in your question and still gave an answer to it. You and the rest derailed it trying to shout me down. Whether they are asking for help or not is insignificant. Whether they are a red state or not is insignificant. Biden showing up shows he is there for the people if they need him. From a political aspect, it would even be politically advantageous for him to show up when the governor is saying he doesn’t need help. It would put political pressure on the governor. As for the question you say I derailed, the question as I saw it was based on bogus assumptions. It assumed that just because someone had accused Trump of something that it was automatic that he had done it. I pointed out that flaw in the question. I did, however, state that I was a firm believer in one set of laws for all, not one for you and I and one for politicians. But we all know that isn’t reality too. The derailment started when everyone commenced to try convincing me that Russia Collusion was real, that J6 was insurrection, that he really did everything the whistleblower claimed on the phone call with Zelenskyy, etc. Again, crimes they swore he committed and yet….well…not backed up by facts. My first answer pointed out the flaw in your question and still gave an answer to it. You and the rest derailed it trying to shout me down. This was the first time in US history where a sitting president traveled to an active war zone without US military ;presence in the country. If you don’t think that sends a crystal clear message to Russia, Ukraine, NATO allies, China, India, the Middle East and the citizens of the US then you obviously haven’t thought about It enough.
”...he is not trying to get the two sides to sit down together to end it.”
Okay, I’ll lead you to the answer you won’t want to admit. Let’s start with the fake news that he was in an active war zone. He went to Kyiv. Probably the closest Ukrainian city at the front was Bakhmut. That is some 360 miles away. To put that in perspective, if the war front was in NYC, would you say that visiting Charleston WV was considered the active war zone? Not likely. So the claim he was in an active war zone is exaggeration at the very least. More like Political theater. “SEE! Joe Biden was in an active war zone! Whatta guy!”. But fools on the left eat it up. Point number one that it was political theater and media optics. On to number 2. So what did Biden accomplish by going to Ukraine? He didn’t fight. He didn’t lead forces into battle. He didn’t address our troops (since there aren’t many there; there are some despite your claims). He was there for 5 hours and managed to speak with Zelenskyy. Since Zelenskyy was in Kyiv you should admit it wasn’t a war zone. He smartly exited war zones as they came to where he was. He was out there boldly which tells you he had nothing to fear…not a war zone. So what was the point of the visit? To send a message? That is political posturing and media optics by definition.
So he was there for political posturing and media optics. Plain and simply. Once again you are wrong. Not that I expect you to admit it. Though I have to admit you didn’t arm me with a citation that proved your error in the first paragraph.
Nor should he be! Any ceasefire right now is simply a recipe for future conflict and there's some big trouble brewing ahead. The entire country of Ukraine is a war zone,where he was wasn’t under fire at that moment, and Biden was there to show the world your country stands with Ukraine.
Maybe he should have paid a visit to Ohio to show those people the federal government stands with them as well. Does his visit paint a bad message and is sending out the wrong message, well only to extreme fright wingers the rest of us certainly don’t think so. And discussion and debate are not bad things. Differing opinions allow us to talk through them.
