Would you need the Bible if Jesus was physically present with you?

@Adstar AMEN, BROTHER!!! THAT'S what God's Word says and He is no liar.

@Adstar The Prophet Mohammed never claimed to redeem anyone, and to say he did or should have done would probably be blasphemous to most Muslims. Though they do become very upset if you insult him.

Like the ancient Hebrew tribal elders/priests, Mohammed wrote what he sincerely thought to be God's ideas and will - he did not try to represent himself as having Divine powers.

@ArishMell Fake divine power

@JonathanSJ By whom?

@Adstar @ArishMell @JonathanSJ
@GodSpeed63 @Renkon
In Islam the concept of original sin does not exist mainly because in the Islamic belief Adam and Eve asked God for forgiveness shortly after they were banished from heaven and God forgave them (Quran 2:37) also the idea of inheritance of sin does not exist in Islam because no one is responsible for the other person’s sin or action
Read (Quran 17:15) and ( Quran 4:112)
The Christians are brought up to think that the only way for your sins to be washed away is for some innocent man to be crucified for you and look for that in other faiths . However in Islam it’s very simple , you simply ask for God’s forgiveness because in Islam God states clearly that he forgives all sins except disbelief in him (Quran 4:48) and that people will enter heaven through his grace ( Sahih Muslim 2818 a)

Unlike what you are insinuating the Quran in various places states that prophet Mohammed was of great moral and came with guidance and light and called mankind to worship the one true God after humanity went astray especially after the mighty prophet Jesus as they started to worship him and what not which we believe this great prophet never actually taught or claimed.
Lastly, comparing your supposed God to my supposed prophet is an illogical and weird argument. If you truly believe that Jesus is God
No problem but
Then Compare the Islamic God to Jesus instead then you’ll have something to stand on .

@Moon3624 I am an agnostic so the Quran is no more relevant to my life than the Bible, Torah or any of the Asian faiths' equivalents; and I see no faith as any more or less valid than any other.

So I was questioning Adstar's and Jonathan's implication that their own belief is the only "true" one.

Hence my pointing out that Mohammed was a prophet, like Moses, but not a divine figure; and querying the "fake" accusation.

@ArishMell Got it thanks for going out of your way to clarify I appreciate it .
If you ever want to know more about Islam you are always welcome in private message and I’ll try my best to answer questions or lead you to people who could help .

Have a good day /night

@Moon3624 [quote]In Islam the concept of original sin does not exist mainly because in the Islamic belief Adam and Eve asked God for forgiveness shortly after they were banished from heaven and God forgave them (Quran 2:37)[/quote]

Well islam gets it wrong.. The garden of Eden was on earth not in heaven and Adam and eve where banished from the garden of eden.. Of course islam gets it wrong because islam is not from the God of Abraham..

[quote]also the idea of inheritance of sin does not exist in Islam[/quote]

If the sin nature is not inherited then you must have decided to sin and as you continue to sin you must be deciding to continue to sin.. But of course you have inherited the weakness of sin and so as a mere human being you will continue to sin till the day you die..

[quote]because no one is responsible for the other person’s sin or action
Read (Quran 17:15) and ( Quran 4:112)[/quote]

Christians don't teach that we are responsable for another person sins.. We teach that we inherit the fault of being sinful.. Two vastly different teachings..

[quote]The Christians are brought up to think that the only way for your sins to be washed away is for some innocent man to be crucified for you and look for that in other faiths . However in Islam it’s very simple , you simply ask for God’s forgiveness because in Islam God states clearly that he forgives all sins except disbelief in him (Quran 4:48) and that people will enter heaven through his grace ( Sahih Muslim 2818 a) [/quote]

Did you disbelieve in God on the day of your birth ? Or do you claim to have been born believing God??? If the unforgivable sin is disbelief in God then all muslims are condemned ..
[quote]
Unlike what you are insinuating the Quran in various places states that prophet Mohammed was of great moral[/quote]

A man who marries a 6 year old and has sexual intercorse with her when she reached 9 years old is NOT a moral man.. he is a filthy sexual degenerate pedo..

@Adstar
1/
“ Well islam gets it wrong.. The garden of Eden was on earth not in heaven and Adam and eve where banished from the garden of eden.. [b]Of course islam gets it wrong because islam is not from the God of Abraham[/b]”

The Bible was written loong after Abraham was gone
So the book you believe in is not a better claimant on Abraham than mine
Thus nullifying your argument .
Furthermore , the Muslims do not believe in the Bible therefore using your holy book to falsify mine is the most ridiculous argument I have ever encountered in my life and even supports my statement when said that many of the Christian oldies on this site are incapable of articulating one simple valid academic argument .
Lastly, ironically the word heaven and garden in Arabic are both represented by the same one word which is جنة/jannah
which what led to some muslim scholars like Sheik Sharawi believing that Adam and Eve were in a garden on earth. However ,
Regardless of where the bliss Adam and Eve were in before they were outcasted
Not only does the answer not benefit us in the least because it’s not the point of their story
but even if they were in heaven and were outcasted from it
we literally do not depend on your Bible
So again your argument is baseless.
In fact many of the things found in your Bible we do not believe in either let alone that 😂


2/
“ If the sin nature is not inherited then you must have decided to sin and as you continue to sin you must be deciding to continue to sin.. But of course you have inherited the weakness of sin and so as a mere human being you will continue to sin till the day you die.. ”

Islam says that humans tend to sin and make mistakes
the difference though between your beliefs and mine
Is that your beliefs require the innocent son of God who is a human being but also God
to be crucified
Meanwhile according to Islam
muslims will enter heaven through God’s grace and mercy (
Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 6464, Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 2818)
and that he forgives ALL SINS if you simply ask for forgiveness (Quran 4:48)

In a nutshell , your sins are forgiven by simply asking for forgiveness in Islam
It is much more sane than the story you want to sell me .

3/

“ A man who marries a 6 year old and has sexual intercorse with her when she reached 9 years old is NOT a moral man.. he is a filthy sexual degenerate pedo..”

This is a silly argument which could easily be dismissed
In fact I believe I already answered ion a thread between us before which maybe you overlooked but I will not waste my energy and explain again
because I know you
I have conversed with you in the past
You are a bigot and a zealous who
Does not want tan actual academic discussion you only want to
spam the same nonsense again and again
I don’t even think you have ever read the Quran entirely or studied Islam
You most likely copy paste from Islamphobic sites
Just like the rest of the oldies in this thread who no one takes seriously

But I did read the Bible and came across unimaginable number of degenerate verses so
you are the last to speak about morality.
In fact you still did not explain to me
Why did your God order for infants who were still sucking on their mommy’s nipples to be put to death
Don’t tell me that’s the Old Testament because
Doesn’t matter
When you still believe that was a command made by God you are therefore still ought to defend it
If you will defend the murder of babies
You are the last to speak about morality
The thing is , this is 0.0001% of the arguments I can bring forth from the Bible but I like this one because it sums up the hypocrisy of Christians.
The Christians will defend anything written in their Bible
Saying “God’s wisdom “ and “different times “
So maybe I should start answering like that and save me time and effort 🤣

@Moon3624 One either believes that offenses must be paid for or they don't.. If islam is true and all you have to do is ask God for forgiveness for ones sins then one can go out a rape a woman when ever ones wants and simply ask God for forgiveness every time they do it.. Nope..

The price of sin is death.. There is a death sentence upon all sinners.. Jesus paid that penalty when he was executed on the cross paying the penalty for us whom believe Him and trust in Him.. Now you reject His Atonement and believe that you can sin as much as you want, commit as many heinous crimes as you want and no matter all you got to do is ask for forgiveness and presto it is all forgiven..

Not me, I believe Justice MUST be served in full.. And though Jesus all my sins are recompensed.. My Fine is paid in full..

And it is a bit rich for a muslim to talk about babies being killed when Just a few months ago devout Hamas muslims killed Israeli infants and little kids in Israel.. The LORD will avenge the little ones because they are innocent.. God hates the hands who shed innocent blood and devout muslims like ISIS and Hamas have the blood of innocents all over their hands..

And you still believe that a dirty pedo muhammad was a prophet .. A degenerate who had sex with a 9 year old Aisha.. Disgusting..

@Adstar
“ One either believes that offenses must be paid for or they don't.. If islam is true and all you have to do is ask God for forgiveness for ones sins then one can go out a rape a woman when ever ones wants and simply ask God for forgiveness every time they do it.. Nope.. ”

There is difference between earthly punishment and hell/heaven .
In fact I can use the same argument against you.
if the son of God died to wash away your sins
Then surely you mean if a Christian goes out and does a crime like the Christian man who did the Christchurch mosque shootings
should not be punished by law because his sin is already washed away right ?

In Islam if you are a Muslim and you go and do sins like murder rape theft etc
Then you will be punished on earth for it
However you can still commit such sins and still go to heaven if you simply repent and ask for forgiveness .
we were discussing salvation after all not earthly matters that are for order in the community and earthly Justice for the victim.
Again God forgives all sins according to the Quran by simply asking for forgiveness
Your belief is “ no no an innocent man
The son of God nonetheless has to die for God to forgive me .”


It’s not a complicated matter and if that’s your selling point it’s not working .



“ And it is a bit rich for a muslim to talk about babies being killed when Just a few months ago devout Hamas muslims killed Israeli infants and little kids in Israel.. “

36 minors Killed by Hamas to be exact
And I believe only one infant among them and many reports including eye witnesses say that Israeli forces killed many of their own on the 7th of Oct when they clashed with Hamas
And
It is rich for Christians to talk about infants getting killed though
When God himself in their own holy book has instructed it many times .e
But you changed the topic because you cannot defend that .
you also have an entire Christian present and history of bloodshed and genocides of children and civilians but ignorance is a blessing.
And it is ironic because the same amount of children you claim Hamas killed on 7th of October
Israel has also killed before 7th of October. in the West Bank where there is no Hamas but under Israeli occupation Israeli killed dozens of children before 7th of Oct and in 2023 alone by targeted fatal fire
Where was your voice then?
(18 Sept 2023 - At least 38 Palestinian children have been killed by Israeli forces in the occupied West Bank so far in 2023, making it the deadliest year since records began, said Save the Children.)

Or is it only specific children lives that matter?
Then you also have after 7th of October when Israel went full genocide on infants and children. Unless Jesus approves of bombing hospitals churches mosques and refugee camps and using dumb bombs . Dumb bombs is that you have no target and don’t care where this bomb falls.
Also civilians are reported to be killed in Gaza by fatal fire.

Anyways ,
Please don’t steer away to world events
And let’s return to our religious discussion
Because believe me you don’t want us to go into that
Because your folk have a terrible record ask the natives of Canada Australia and USA for instance which you have ethnically cleansed
That’s one example of a zillion
Or the genocide of Namibia
And South African apartheid
Or the crusaders
And really a long list of bloodbaths
Colonization and conquests and genocides and famines
Orchestrated by majority Christian nations throughout history until today
In fact you made me laugh and made my day
As you are clearly uneducated about politics , history and world events
As you are with religions
And I can go on and give a long list of examples of Christians doing terrorist attacks and horrible crimes throughout the world
But that do not have any merit in scripture debates

@Adstar



“ ISIS and Hamas have the blood of innocents all over their hands..”

And? Christians have blood of millions of innocent people on their hands
A barbaric Christian present and history. So spare me your deliberate ignorance that only make more and more people look at you all pathetically.
Plus
Hamas is not like Isis
Nothing I hate more than people trying to deliberately twist facts
I don’t give two fucks about your opinion on Hamas but
But do read Hamas 2017 charter



Furthermore,
“ research and education center at the University of Maryland, believe that Muslims are in fact the most likely victims of terrorism worldwide.”

And on daily basis Muslims get attacked in Europe USA and Asia
Including shootings stabbing mosque attacks etc
But these do not get popular on the News because there is a clear propaganda going on .

Yes God loves the state of Israel
That bombs churches
Build segregation walls
Steal people’s homes
Ethnically cleanse families
filled with gay bars
Most criticized nation by the UN 2 years ago
And regularly massacres children
Since their founding
But the natives to the land aka Palestinians (dna wise )
Who the majority of them either follow Islam or Christianity .
Faiths that honor Jesus unlike the Jews who cuss him and call him a bastard and a liar
Are somehow more worthy of defending blindly as a Christian .


The reason you support Israel is not because they have the Just cause
But because you have hatred towards Muslims even if it means Christian Palestinians being oppressed too
In fact you’d love for all 2+ billion of Muslims of all races to be thrown into a hole of fire
Nothing would make you happier


Spare me your hypocritical comments

@Adstar

And since you hate Islam so much
Why hate Isis?
In fact majority of Isis victims are Muslims

You should be thrilled they are doing you a big favor

@Adstar
“Only Jesus redeems …”
The Quran does say prophet Mohammed came with guidance and light and path to salvation and heaven
Endless times in the Quran
So don’t speak about other religions
Please
Restrict your comment to your own beliefs
And if you are gonna be a bigot to other faiths
Then do not act offended when you get the same treatment
it is extremely difficult for Christians to
preach their faith on here it seems without cursing other religions and their important figures
Maybe it’s low self esteem

@Adstar
By the way
Palestinians are resisting occupation murder subjugation colonialism and apartheid from foreigners who came(and still do) on boats and planes and stole their homes
Every people have a right to resist such thing
It is just the oppressors happened to be of the Jewish faith
Or are you saying followers of Jewish faith can never do anything wrong ?
Even Hamas charter 2017 states that
That their problem isn’t with Judaism but occupation

Meanwhile your Christian folk have oppressed and expelled Jews simply for being Jewish

UK and Spain expelled their Jewish population
Germany Austria France carried out a holocaust
Russia had pogroms
Etc
So
You as a Christian man
is the last one to speak about Jewish hatred and terrorism against Jews
When almost all of your Christian history you have persecuted them
In fact bigotry against Jewish people by Christians only ceased in such nations after secularism and throwing the Christian religious doctrine in the trash


I know many many Christians working in Qatar UAE Saudi Kuwait Oman etc they face almost 0 terror attacks for being Christian
But I know endless Muslim people in USA uk etc
Who face racism , stabbings, shootings , mosque attacks
I can send you an entire package of articles

But again ignorance is a blessing


When USA invaded Iraq illegally over the mass weapons of destruction lie and killed 1 million Muslims and rapes and torture happened etc
Is that Christian religious terrorism ?
Or is it only Muslim political groups who are terrorist when they do things for political reasons ?

@ArishMell [quote]Like the ancient Hebrew tribal elders/priests,[big] Mohammed wrote what he sincerely thought[/big] to be God's ideas and will - he did not try to represent himself as having Divine powers.[/quote]

How on earth do you know the mind of the pedo muhammad ? He wanted worldly power and riches and so created a cult to gain the jihadists to get it by warfare.. Like all cult leaders ( like joseph smith of the mormons for instance ) He had multiple wives and concubines more then he allowed his followers.. while islam states a man can only have 4 wives muhammad had 11 and sex slave woman..

@Adstar You are guilty of the same charge of thinking you know another's mind. We cannot say he wasn't sincere in his religious views, yet that is what you are implying.

I was not commenting on his other acts or behaviour, not what sort of power you allege he wanted; but I don't know what was regarded as normal in his society in his time - even if it is very wrong to us.

Perhaps he put a limit on four wives because he realised having big harems was wrong.

Any Islamic scholars and religious historians on this site who know Mohammed's real biography and the background to his ideas?

@ArishMell @Adstar

Adstar has not criticized his God for instructing to kill infants like we see in Samuel but has the balls to criticize my beliefs.
He is surely concerned about human right violations 😂

1/ many biblical figures
That are viewed to be good and going to heaven by Christians themselves
Did have more than one partner but apparently Mohammed is nasty for doing the same thing
Also I read the Bible entirely and did not find a single verse where it explicitly states that you can only marry one wife and if you marry more than one you are sinful.
It was the church and Other factors that shaped that hence why certain Christians like Mormons do not have any moral objection to having more than one wife .
In fact many Jews and Christians in the Middle East and other parts historically speaking did have more than one spouse .
And even if we go with the Christian claim that the New Testament makes polygamy illegal (I don’t mind rolling with that at all )
That means it is purely because their objective God decided to ban it all of a sudden
And not a pure issue of morality because their God clearly allowed it in the Old Testament
Does that mean their God allowed something immoral once upon a time ?
Moreover , Christians do not even act according to their Bible.
For instance , according to the New Testament in the book of Matthew anyone marrying a divorced woman would have committed Adultery.
This means a divorced person is not allowed to get married again in Christianity . Of course
Most if not all Christians do not believe or act according to this
let alone the rest of the package of instructions I came across in the New Testament.
By the way prophet Mohammed did marry widows and divorced women but according to the Bible that’s sinful why do you not attack prophet Mohammed for marrying such women ? Maybe because he provided them love income and a home when almost the entire society back then would look down on them and look for virgin young women instead ? In fact the reason this is not mentioned because people like adstar want to paint the narrative that Mohammed was predator going after young women and virgins
They need that narrative to push their agenda 😂

moreover , every woman that married Mohammed did so by choice and stayed with him by choice
actually forcing a woman or a man into marriage in Islam without consent is a sin .
In fact there was a time when the wives of Mohammed wanted an increase in their allowance and he could not afford it simultaneously some family problems were going on
So he told them that if they desire such luxury which he cannot afford then he will divorce them in a graceful manner and would not blame them

And I quote the verse :
33:28
{
O Prophet! Say to your wives, “If you desire the life of this world and its luxury, then come, I will give you a ˹suitable˺ compensation ˹for divorce˺ and let you go graciously.
}



This means prophet Mohammed did give his wives (including Aisha ) the choice for divorce but they themselves decided to stay with him and endure the obstacles of life patiently together.
So what’s the issue? Y’all live in nations where having as many partners as you wish by mutual consent is considered to be personal freedom lol

2/

In Islam marriage is about souls finding comfort peace and mercy
it is about building a family and finding stability
Not the simple animal act of sex.
But that is how people like adstar think because of the lustful and nasty environment majority of Christians live in today
They live in nations
Where porn is legal
Night one stands are normal
Were half naked women are slapped on top of products to sell it
And sex outside of marriage is normal
In fact such countries have a significant issue with pedos and child exploitation
On top of them the USA and ironically
In the west they legalize sex (not marriage ) between a minor and a non minor in many cases
If of course we say that the definition of a child is someone under 18.
In Islam conditions for marriage include consent , emotional and mental maturity and so on…
It is also accompanied with a list of requirements to ensure the well being of the wife and husband .

As for the Aisha age argument .
The Quran does not state her age
But bibliography does which makes a huge difference in authenticity and how we approach the information .
Furthermore, in this same bibliography
Some scholars quote different evidence which puts her at a different age.
However
Regardless of her age she was recorded to be mentally physically and emotionally mature
Consenting and menstruating.
By the way,
I read the Bible and did not find a single verse where it says you can only marry once you are 18 and above .
according to biblical history girls used to get married at 12 in some articles it hinted to be younger.

the typical age to be married varied depending on the specific historical and cultural context and other facts like average life expectancy.

Today we set such age depending on our own context and our own situation
For all we know 1000 years from now
Marrying someone under the age of 23 could be considered to be a crime for good reasons.

On a last note ,
Aisha today would be what you call a Prodigy it is funny those who claim to care about Aisha are those who know the least about her.
She is regarded in Islamic history as one of the greatest scholars and jurists .

@ArishMell [quote]Perhaps he put a limit on four wives because he realised having big harems was wrong.[/quote]

He did put a limit on the number of wives.. In fact as a mere supposed messenger of God he told his followers that muslims could only have 4 wives... So this was supposedly a LAW from God.. But he ended up having `11 wives what does this tell you?? Now i can see by your post that you are predisposed to not listen to what i say on the subject with your asking

[quote]Any Islamic scholars and religious historians on this site who know Mohammed's real biography and the background to his ideas?[/quote]

You want to have the muhammad was a good guy filter and hear only from pro Islamist.. That's your own affirmation bias on display..

@Adstar @ArishMell

Adstar,
I made a long list of points in my latest comment which I sent today imbedded in two broken sections titled 1 and 2
Which you completely ignored
I also sent you 5 comments before today’s comment from 1-2 days ago
which you also completely ignored in this same thread.
Which has led me to the certain belief that you are cherry picking at it finest due to your lack of ability to counter argue.
On the other hand , I reply to every argument you put forward and every little point you make which really shows the vast difference in how we are approaching this discussion.

Anyways I’ll not lower my self to your level and I’ll continue to respond to every point you make regardless if you don’t reply to my previous points or the points I’ll make now or the ones I’ll make in the future .

“He did put a limit on the number of wives.. In fact as a mere supposed messenger of God he told his followers that muslims could only have 4 wives... So this was supposedly a LAW from God.. But he ended up having `11 wives what does this tell you?? “

Because that happened before the
“you can only have 4 wives law”
So technically he did not break the law
In fact if prophet Mohammed was a liar
He would not have put forward such law because it would only harm his image like what you are trying to do right now.
By the way prophet Mohammed was not allowed to marry anyone besides these women even if they pass away in his lifetime or if they divorce him
Even if they all die or divorce him
which only applies to him and not the rest of the Muslims
Because in Islam you can re marry after divorce or the passing of your spouse
Why ignore that? Since you like talking about special laws regarding prophet Mohammed lol
And I quote
33:52
{It is not lawful for you ˹O Prophet˺ to marry more women after this, nor can you replace any of your present wives with another, even if her beauty may attract you}

@Adstar

“ You want to have the muhammad was a good guy filter and hear only from pro Islamist.. That's your own affirmation bias on display..”


And you want to have Muhammad to be portrayed as a bad guy and for people to only hear from anti Islamists and refer to Islam phobic sites
Because surely they are not bias right ?
Do you recommend me to educate myself on Christianity by conversing with
anti Christians and referring to anti Christianity sites ?
Thank you for the advice that is what I’ll do from now on.

@Moon3624 Thankyou for those explanations.

@ArishMell You agree with lies and the evil of islam... Thats your own personal decision.. You are responsable for what you embrace and what you reject..

@Adstar Where did I say that?

I am no more a Muslim than I am a Jew, Christian, Sikh, Hindi, Wiccan or anything else.

Neither though, do I gratuitously attack religions for the wrongs committed by some of their followers in their faiths' names - be they Islam or Christian, or any other.

Accusing people of writing things they have not, is beneath you.

@ArishMell I don't believe you... Your posts have been adding excuses to the excesses of mohammad.. You have been positive towards moon in your replies and combative towards me and my replies.. You are basically an anti Christian who is open and willing to ally yourself to any movement you perceive as being anti Christian like the islamic movement put forward by moon..

Saying you do not have a bias while showing your anti-christian bias is beneath you..