John Lennox on Faith

How completely wrong you are on the nature of faith . Paul talks of faith as ‘knowing Him’ ie Christ. The problem is that Kierkegaard was wrong. If it was easy as he says he would’ve done it@LeopoldBloom

@Mathers I think Paul was wrong. The greatest disaster in Christianity was when he got involved with it. He completely ruined it just as it was getting started.

Kierkegaard didn't say proving the truth of Christianity was easy. He would have said that it was impossible. But he was pointing out the nature of faith. You don't have faith in something you know for a fact. Nobody has faith that 2 + 2 = 4, they know it. If your faith in God is absolutely unshakeable and based on perfect, complete knowledge, then it's not faith.

Well of course this whole notion the pool was wrong comes from people who don’t understand Christianity and don’t understand the Bible is based on Jewish Scriptures and it usually comes from complete ignorance. You are proving you don’t understand the Bible and you don’t understand Faith just as Kierkegaard didn’t. But proving what he said is totally impossible anyway. You cannot prove absolutely anything outside of mathematics. You know that if you’ve been educating@LeopoldBloom

@Mathers I probably have a better understanding of the Bible than you do, since I haven't been brainwashed with an approved interpretation the way you have. I agree that God's existence cannot be proven in the way that a mathematical formula can be. KIerkegaard was simply pointing out that if it was proved, that would demolish faith and end Christianity, since the religion does require faith in a God whose existence can't be proven.

Of course, this doesn't stop Christian apologists from attempting to prove God's existence. There is one school of thought that says apologetics is blasphemy, because it attempts to replace faith (which salvation requires) with knowledge.

You’ve been brainwashed by unbelief. You have no understanding of the bible. You are talking i riddles. Your understanding is zero. @LeopoldBloom

@Mathers Spoken like a true fanatic. Everyone who disagrees with you is either a fool or brainwashed.

You don't even realize that the way you present Christianity makes it repulsive to any thinking person. But maybe that's your goal. You get a lot of pleasure from looking down on people, so the more people who reject your degenerate philosophy, the better it feels for you. You're pathetic if the only pleasure you get out of life is worshipping an old book and thinking that you're superior to everyone who doesn't.

If I have no understanding of the Bible and am brainwashed by unbelief, it's a little unfair for your God to send me to hell for not believing in him. That would be like trying to teach tensor calculus to a five year old, and whipping him when he couldn't understand it.

Spoken like a true fanatic. You have pursued me on this thread like a true fanatic who is utterly brainwashed into the view you have. I don’t believe I ever mentioned hell once but you are a fanatic in your hatred for God.

It is quite true what the Bible says that the fool said in his heart there is no God. It is not me who is making It’s repulsive but your own hatred for God.
The problem is with you is that you project your own fanaticism and hatred onto other people@LeopoldBloom

@Mathers I'm just responding to your errors. Don't flatter yourself, you're not that important. You're just another religious bigot, and not even a particularly interesting or knowledgeable one. I've had enlightening conversations with religious people who were interested in a genuine exchange of ideas, where there was mutual respect. That's not possible here because you just want to use this forum to push your own agenda. You don't even have respect for yourself.

And I don't hate God because I don't believe he exists. That would be like accusing someone of hating Sauron or Voldemort. What I hate is the effect fundamentalist religion has had on humanity. That's not limited to Christianity. All fundamentalist religion, be it Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, or whatever has ultimately been a force of destruction.

Since I was raised in a religious home, and came up with atheism on my own without ever hearing about it, who "brainwashed" me? Just because you're brainwashed doesn't mean everyone else is.

I’ll stop calling people names. You’re just an irreligious bigot with no argument. You’ve got a chip on your shoulder and you’ve got no argument whatsoever apart from ‘it’s all a load of rubbish’. For goodness sake we’ve heard that for years. Do give it a rest@LeopoldBloom

@Mathers It's clear that the only reason you are pushing your religion on here is to feel superior to everyone who disagrees with you. What a pathetic little man you are.

I’m not pushing anything. You are pushing atheism . It’s interesting someone only has to make a simple statement and you folks around it like moths to a flame. There was no need to come and trial on my site. But you can’t resist it.

@LeopoldBloom

@Mathers I'm not pushing atheism, I'm disagreeing with your promotion of a degenerate form of Christianity on here. It's all you talk about. You can look at my posts on here and few if any of them have to do with atheism. I'm only responding to you and other religious fascists.

Ii cannot see that’s post of a quote by one of the great minds of our day is exactly ‘pushing religion’ ’ but I realise that to people like you anyone who makes you think is a ‘religious fascist’ @LeopoldBloom

@Mathers You clearly felt the need to post it. Do you even have any posts on here that aren't promoting your religion?

Do you think atheists should have the same rights you have in society? It's a yes or no question.

Of course atheists have the same rights as me and they are not slow to post things on here pushing their point of view. You clearly are the most bigoted person. @LeopoldBloom

@Mathers Hilarious since the Supreme Court just affirmed the right of a coach to conduct Christian prayer services at high school football games. Do you honestly think a player who opts out of the prayer will be treated the same as a player who participates? How would you feel about a coach conducting a Muslim prayer service? Do you think the Supreme Court would have ruled the same way in that case?

The reason you don't recognize your privileged position is because you're used to it. This is why you view even someone disagreeing with you as "oppression."

I don’t know anything you are talking about. Of course atheists would have the rights to opt out of prayers. Your constitution gives them that! Or can’t you read? @LeopoldBloom

@Mathers It was the [i]Kennedy v. Bremerton School District[/i] case last year.

[c=003BB2]https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/06/coach-kennedy-bremerton-prayer-football-public-school.html[/c]

What if the teacher came up with some pretext for punishing the atheist because they were mad that they didn't join in the prayer? This was the plaintiff's argument in the case against the coach, that players were participating in the prayer against their will because they were afraid they would get less playing time.

What if a Muslim wanted the teacher to lead the class in their prayer? The Christians of course could opt out, would you be OK with that? Some school districts have Jews, Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, and others in the same class. By the time you got through all the prayers, it would be time to go home.

Some schools have "quiet time" where students can pray quietly or check their Instagram or whatever. The problem is teacher-led prayer which inevitably discriminates against students who don't participate.

You are talking in what if’s like most atheists do. When I did assemblies in schools I used to says, “I’m going to pray. If you want to join in you are welcome. If you don’t please sit quietly.” Anything wrong with that? . @LeopoldBloom

@Mathers So you're OK with a Muslim or a Wiccan making that same invitation? Why should you get special treatment? If you want to pray, then pray silently.

Prayer in school works great if everyone is the same religion. The reason the Supreme Court outlawed it is it becomes coercive if students have to sit through a prayer for a different religion.

Be honest and tell me how you would react if the coach was a Muslim and had been leading the team in the shahada prayer. You'd have said he needs to take that crap off the field and do it at home or in his mosque and not subject you to it. That's exactly how the rest of us feel when a loudmouth Christian takes over the proceedings and forces everyone to sit through his prayer whether we want to or not.

Either everyone gets to pray or no one does. You're not special just because you think you are.

Frankly I never heard of a Muslim coach doing so you are completely being an absolute ignoramus mentioning such a thing@LeopoldBloom

@Mathers Since your religion is in the majority and you live in an area where everyone agrees with you, I'm not surprised at your response. Believe it or not, everyone in the U.S. isn't a Christian. There are Muslim coaches and teachers in areas with more Muslims, just as there are Jewish, Hindu, and Buddhist teachers in other places.

I assume you're not a Catholic. How would you feel about a teacher holding a Catholic mass in a classroom that your kids were in?

Jesus said that those who enter the kingdom will actually few. I don’t know where you pick up this nonsense you parrot. But truth is truth whether nobody believes it or whether everybody believes it@LeopoldBloom

@Mathers And of course, you're one of the few.

So basically, the vast majority of humanity is destined for eternal torture. I'm sure that delights you.

You’re making all these silly statements not me@LeopoldBloom