The Lie: Mankind Created God - The Truth: God Created Mankind

@TangledUpInBlue No. Not quite. Science does not have all the answers, that's true. But scientific theories are not hunches or opinions. And pieces of a larger puzzle, though not solved, are crucial in understanding both the immediate and bigger implications. There is no "blind faith" in science, only observation, experimentation and validation. And we have many more answers than you might think possible.

Maybe the biggest problem, the one inherent unsolvable issue, is that people compare religion and science as if they are somehow equal opposites of the other. They are not opposed, they are not set in opposition to one another, they are not exclusive and one does not have to go running to the shelter of one when answers aren't forthcoming from the other.

Religion, btw, has less tolerance for women than it does science. The entire passage of woman being formed from Adam's rib surrounding the mistranslation of "equal" or "half" for "side," immediately diminishing her equal standing with man. It only got worse from there.

@Graylight Absolutely agree, this is why I take umbrage when religion and people claim their beliefs as an absolute truth. I also agree that these religions diminish women, therefore I won’t support it. I fully support science.
However when physics turns into metaphysics, then everyone, science, religion, philosophy can only ponder.

@TangledUpInBlue
I'm sorry you have this misconception that Christians have no definitive answer at all. Maybe God's Word answers nothing for you, but for Christians, it gives us all the answers we need. There's nothing blind about our beliefs. The spiritually blind are always wandering about for answers, but God's Word gives us all the answers we need. There's no guessing about what God said in His Word. We know exactly what we believe, and why. We are satisfied that God is no liar. In this, knowing who God is and His character, we can definitely, without apology, say we do know God and His standard for salvation. Unbelievers act like it's some kind of a shame to say we know what we believe that there's nothing shameful about it. And Jesus said if you're ashamed of me, then I will be ashamed of you before my Father in heaven. We have never thought ourselves better nor above anyone else in this world, but we can say with certainty that we know exactly what we believe and why. How many others can say that? We don't have to guess about the Way, the Truth and the Life. Jesus said, I gave you my Holy Word so that you would know and not have to guess about how to have salvation and Heaven when you die. If none believe him, then that's the same thing as calling Him a liar, and He is not. And that's not arrogant to say we know, because that's how much faith we have in God and have seen proof of Miracles and God's beautiful handiwork. Everyone else has the same opportunity. Some just don't want it and that's okay too because it's up to them. What people don't understand, they mock and criticize. And what they don't realize is that when one accepts Jesus as their personal Savior, they immediately receive the Holy Spirit as evidence of their receiving Christ into their heart and life. The Holy Spirit is a seal from God, on all those that have accepted him as Savior. He is also proof that God is alive and operates in and through our lives. Just as Jesus promised in His Word. Anyone can have this.

@LadyGrace You believe you know, that’s all. You believe that because you’ve been taught and indoctrinated into it. That’s fine if you want to believe that you know 100 percent what the answers are because a book tells you so. But that’s just your faith, like all other beliefs. No need to be sorry for me, you said it yourself..we believe what we know. Exactly. That’s your choice and opinion as mine is mine.

@TangledUpInBlue
Nope. You can be presumptuous all you like, but I know that I know. When you experience God, you know it, there's no guessing. I've seen too many miracles and experienced miracles and even God saving my own daughter's life through prayer, as one of those miracles that could not have happened without Him. So you can't tell me that it's only that I believe that I know. You didn't experience what I did, so you're trying to find a way out to excuse yourself from believing. It's okay if you don't or can't believe me. Other's disbelief doesn't bother me at all. It's very strange however that you try to explain away what happened to me, when you can't know. You weren't there. You don't know me and you can't tell me what you think you know about me. You assume that I was taught and indoctrinated into what I believe but that's just the opposite of what happened. The proof is in the experience and no one can take that away from me and hundreds of others who have been rewarded by their faith, to know God.... other believers who know that God is real and there's nothing better than first hand experience.

The Bible doesn't leave us to guess, even if you can't believe that. God keeps His promises. And God said the Bible is foolishness to those who have not experienced Him first hand and so naturally they are going to criticize, mock it and try to explain it away the best they know how, but nothing can compare with a relationship with God and interacting with Him.

Yes I believe God's Word 100% and as the Bible mentions, as God is no liar, and even if an angel came down from heaven and told me there was no God, I would never believe it. I already know the angel would be lying.

And again, you're wrong. My belief is not the same as all other beliefs and other's disbelief doesn't bother me at all. Believe as you will, as you stated. I have a personal relationship with Jesus, His Father and the Holy Spirit. So no one can tell me what I think I know. No one will ever be able to take that away from me because the experience I had with Almighty God, is just as real today, as it was 50 years ago, when Jesus saved me. As I mentioned before, the proof is in the experience.

@LadyGrace all of that still doesn’t change the fact that you believe you know. Why isn’t your belief the same as others who believe they know?

@TangledUpInBlue
Belief follows Truth, Red, you should know that by now. What LadyGrace and other brothers and sisters in Christ have experienced, no amount of disbelief can change. You can blow your own horn all you like but you can't change the Truth anymore than you can the past.

@GodSpeed63 that’s what believers of all religions say.

@TangledUpInBlue
I'm not religious, Red, not in the definition you're going by.

@GodSpeed63 Picking the forest for the trees, I see.

@TangledUpInBlue
No, it doesn't change the fact that I know that I know, but it's okay to be certain of what you know. In my experience, I had no idea that God would communicate so closely with me, after I prayed to him. I didn't know what to expect, so I wasn't expecting any type of sign...nothing. I couldn't know about what happened to me, until I actually experienced it and at that, I was absolutely shocked that the God of this whole universe, with having to tend to all He does in this world and the universe, actually heard and answered me, of all people...a sinner! I could not believe that, and I'm still floored by it today, that He actually listened and heard me, out of everyone else in the world, at that time. Of course, God being omnipresent, I'm sure He was listening to others as well, because He can do that with his powers, but wow, I will never forget that day in my whole life. That's something you just don't forget. He actually heard me, and who am I, but like everyone else?!! But He didn't answer me because I'm more special than anyone else, because I'm not, and I know that full well.

I'm no different than anyone else. We're all in the same boat, in need of Christ. We can see that, from all the sin and crime and everything we see in this world, that we need a Savior. But God knew my heart that day that I meant what I said to him. I just spoke to him from my heart and told him that I was so sorry for my sins and I told him I was so sorry for neglecting and ignoring him and just living selfishly and wasting this precious life that he had given me, amongst other things, and I asked him to come into my heart and life and to be my Savior. I told him also that I wanted to make up for those days that I had wasted that He gave me and I promised him I would, and I have kept that promise for the last 50 years. He heard me and answered me, forgiving me for all my sins, and transformed me, and my whole life. He sent His Holy Spirit to dwell in me, as promised in the Word of God. Of course, I didn't know what was happening at the time, but I then, after saying my peace to Him, closed my eyes to sleep. It was bedtime, so that's what I did of course and didn't think anything about something might happen to me from that prayer, so it was neither here nor there. I just went to sleep, and thought I said what needed to be said. But during the night as I slept, since I had made my commitment to Him out of love for Him and what He did for me on the cross, He answered my prayer by sending His Holy Spirit to live in me and guide me in life. That, I was truly shocked by.

The Holy Spirit has many functions. He comes as a great Teacher and Guide and helps us understand the things of the Spirit, which are written in the Book of the Holy Spirit, God's Word. The Bible is "alive", because of the Holy Spirit, that inspired not just anyone, but holy men of old, we are told in God's word. God would not entrust His Holy Word to just anyone . So when holy men of old were inspired by the Holy Spirit as to what to write, they were careful to write it down exactly as given. It's like when ministers today are given by the Holy Spirit on what to preach in their sermons. It is not their own words but words from the holy spirit that inspires them on what message to give. It is a message from God himself to us and it helps us to grow in our spirit and the Holy Spirit teaches us through the sermons.

When we give God our whole heart, He knows we speak from a sincere heart, and are telling him the truth from our heart and soul. He rewards our faith, to all who will trust in Him, not just some. He died for all, not just some, and all who will believe in Him and place their trust in Him, receives the Holy Spirit, as well, as promised in His Word. The Bible says the Holy Spirit is our "seal" that God has placed in us, to show we belong to His family now. It is a finished transaction between God's Spirit joining with ours. It is also a seal and bond that cannot be broken between God and the receiver of His promises, to love us, save us, and free us from the condemnation sin had placed on us. It is written in His Word, and He always keeps His promises.

Prayer is the key to heaven, but Faith unlocks the door. It is total commitment, that is the key to salvation and heaven. When we make that commitment, our spirit is reunited with our Heavenly Father and fellowship is restored. If someone loved us for example, a boyfriend or husband to be, we would not want just half their heart, and neither does God. When we love the Lord enough to give our whole heart and dedicate our life to Him out of love and that desire to love and know Him more, He honors the prayers of our heart.

Those are the keys to heaven and salvation. Total acceptance and trust in God that He will keep His Word to save us, as He said he would, and He does. It has nothing to do with doing good or earning our way to heaven in any way, as we walk by faith, simply trusting and taking God at His Word, and Jesus takes it from there. He forgives us of our sins and remembers them no more. We start out fresh and brand new as if we had never sinned. It is a brand new life in Christ. It is then, that the Holy Spirit indwelling in us, begins transforming our hearts and lives. God's Word says it is only when we seek God, and are willing to invite him into our hearts and lives as our Savior, that we can be saved. Not all understand that. They try to live good lives, but some ignore Jesus and what He did for us on the cross, and others try to do good deeds or work their way to heaven, but God said that simply doesn't work. Our sins must be forgiven, in order to restore fellowship with a Holy God. We cannot drag our sins into a holy heaven, or it would not be heaven. Left to chance or hopeful thinking, our souls remain lost....until a choice is made, so Jesus can intercede for us to our Heavenly Father, who forgives our sins.

God won't make that choice for us, because remember.... some people don't want salvation or anything to do with God, so that's why we must come to Jesus on our own, and pray to our Mediator between God and man, Jesus, and let Him know that we really do want salvation and forgiveness. He promises to save all who come and turns no one away. God accepts any who come. No matter race, "religion", denomination, or sin. God loves all of us and hopes everyone will come to Him for salvation. And when even one person repents and asks Jesus to save them, legends of angels in heaven, sing and rejoice over that one soul, who was once lost, but now has been saved, forgiven, and has inherited eternal life in heaven and shall live with God and the angels, forever and ever.

Luke 15:7 KJV
"I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine "just" persons, which think they need no repentance."

@LadyGrace that’s cool, glad you found your own personal answers. Again, that’s what you think. Wonder where the women are….

@LadyGrace That's just christian hubris. Members of other religions are just as certain in their beliefs, probably more so because they don't feel the need to try to indoctrinate others.

@TangledUpInBlue What women? For what?

@suzie1960
What I share comes strictly from God and His Word. He told His followers to share the good news of salvation in Christ, before He joined His Father in heaven and accomplished His mission, so if you have any problems with that, take it up with Him.

@LadyGrace Never-mind Carazaa

@TangledUpInBlue I'm not Corazaa by any means and I don't believe the same as she believes in some areas, but whatever.

@LadyGrace I would if he actually existed.

@suzie1960 Actually, all philosophies aside, there's reliable evidence the man Jesus did exist.

@suzie1960 @Graylight
Nobody is talking about philosophies, or religions, or pseudo sciences, just salvation through Jesus Christ by His Holy Spirit.

@Graylight Such as? It's possible there were a few people with the name "Jesus" (or Yeshua or whatever) but I'm not aware of any contemporary records of the one described in the bible. He seems to be a either a complete myth or, possibly, the personification of a rebel movement.

@suzie1960 Lawrence Mykytiuk, an associate professor of library science at Purdue University and author of a 2015 Biblical Archaeology Review article on the extra-biblical evidence of Jesus, notes that there was no debate about the issue in ancient times either. “Jewish rabbis who did not like Jesus or his followers accused him of being a magician and leading people astray,” he says, “but they never said he didn’t exist.”

*Within a few decades of his lifetime, Jesus was mentioned by Jewish and Roman historians in passages that corroborate portions of the New Testament that describe the life and death of Jesus. The Jews and Romans, in particular, would have wanted the story of another messiah erased. To include him in their writings would have been very poor practice for them, especially since they could have ignored him through time with no effort.

*Then there's Josephus who, according to many Biblical scholars, “is far and away our best source of information about first-century Palestine,” twice mentions Jesus in Jewish Antiquities, his massive 20-volume history of the Jewish people that was written around 93 A.D.

He was thought to have been born a few years after the crucifixion of Jesus around 37 A.D. Although Josephus was not a follower of Jesus, “he was around when the early church was getting started, so he knew people who had seen and heard Jesus,” scholar Mykytiuk says.

In one passage of Jewish Antiquities that recounts an unlawful execution, Josephus identifies the victim, James, as the “brother of Jesus-who-is-called-Messiah.” While few scholars doubt the short account’s authenticity, says Mykytiuk, more debate surrounds Josephus’s lengthier passage about Jesus, known as the “Testimonium Flavianum,” which describes a man “who did surprising deeds” and was condemned to be crucified by Pilate. Mykytiuk agrees with most scholars that Christian scribes modified portions of the passage but did not insert it wholesale into the text.

*The letters of the apostle Paul from about AD 50-60 are the earliest texts mentioning Jesus and the doctrines of Christianity. When Paul appears in the Bible, it is as a letter-writer extolling the leader of a new faith. Why pin a new faith to a mythical figure?

*Roman historians Pliny and Tacitus also wrote about Jesus Christ about 20 years after Josephus’s book. The “Annals” by Tacitus from AD 115 mentioned the Roman prefect Pontius Pilate executing Jesus, alluding to crucifixion, and placed that event within the timeframe that agrees with Christian gospels.

*The first gospel or witness account appear no later than within 25 years of Jesus’s death (AD 50-60). On the other hand, biographical accounts of Jesus in the New Testament date from around 40 years after Jesus’s death. All accounts could and would have included eyewitness testimony.

@Graylight The fact that a group of people didn't say Jesus didn't exist is not evidence that he did.

Within a few decades of his alleged lifetime...
Who wrote those portions of the NT?

could not have been a contemporary of Jesus, therefore not an eyewitness. Mch of what has been attributed to him is of doubtful origin too.

The stories are just hearsay. There's a story about a highly skilled archer who lived in Sherwood Forest with his band of Merry Men. That's just as plausable as the stories about Jesus.

Again, not an eye witness to events he claims.

Why not? The absence of a real one would be a a very good reason to pin it on a mythical one.

Again, not eye witnesses to the alleged events.

It's quite possible there were people by that name, some of whom may have been executed, not necessarily by crucifixion though and not ncessarily the biblical Jesus.
.
.Which one was that? The earliest I've heard of were written around 70CE.

"could have..." (presuming the alleged events actually occurred) , not necessarily "would have..." and no good reason to believe they did.

@suzie1960 Mark is thought to be the first gospel, chronologically, of the four NT gospels, which would have been 50-80 CE. The authors of these and many other testaments are largely known. 50-80 CE, btw, would translate to 25 years after the death of Jesus.

Josephus was born into the time of contemporaries of Jesus, so he would be writing down eyewitness accounts. And odd that you don't know his name yet dub his work doubtful. Only those not involved in the academic study of theology and biblical history place any doubt on him at all. Likey we wouldn't be citing his work 2,000 years later if it was riddle with holes.

Yes, some stories are hearsay by modern standards. Bear in mind there were no local libraries or book stores and the average man couldn't read or write. Human history is full of the re-tellings of history. If you're looking for transcripts or stills of the events, you're going to be disappointed. But odd you don't pull so many other historical events into question: just this one. The point in these retellings is that they would have been counterproductive to create them for the very people said to have crucified Jesus. Their best best would have simply been to ignore the stories.

Why create a savior from pure myth? The world didn't have 6 billion people then. The known world to people of this era might've been 100 miles. To create out of whole cloth a lie would have been fairly easy to dispel.

Can anyone "prove" the existence of Jesus? No, but there's enough evidence to sway the preponderance of the doubt, certainly enough for examination and investigation. And yet you slam the door shut entirely before even being presented with the argument. That's not critical reasoning, that's an emotion-based choice.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/story/mmmark.html#:~:text=While%20there%20is%20disagreement%20about,how%20Mark%20tells%20his%20story.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/story/gospels.html#:~:text=Mark%20is%20the%20earliest%20gospel,ends%20his%20life%20in%20Jerusalem.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/story/mmfour.html

@Graylight Note the words "...though to be..." What evidence is there to support that belief or even who wrote it? Also, as you admit, it was written about 25 years after tyhe alleged death on Jesus so is not a contemporaneous account.

So who did write them and when? As it says in the first link you provided - "The gospel of Mark is the second to appear in the New Testament, but most scholars now agree that it was composed first. While the work is attributed to "Mark," we will probably never know the author's true identity, for it was common practice in the ancient world to enhance the importance of written works by attributing them to famous people.

Repeating what another says is not an "eye witness account", it's actually the definition of hearsay.

Whose name do you fin is odd that I don't know. Do you mean Flavius Josephus? I referred to by name, as Josephus, just as you did.

Actually it is those who are involved in those fields of study who doubt the authenticity of Josephus's accounts. They're only accepted without question by those attempting to prove the bible is the literal "word of god".

The definition of hearsay hasn't changed. All the stories about "Jesus" are hearsay because there are no contemporaneous records of him.

Good of you to admit that fact.

You're wrong. I question whether Robin (of the) Hood, King Arthur, et al. existed also. Stories about other historical figure can usually be cross checked against multiple, independent, sources.
The reason I focus the Jesus in these threads is because it is one of the subjects pertinent to this group

I don't know but the same question could be asked of Robin Hood and King Arthur.

Exactly my point.

What evidence? All I've ever seen are unsupported claims and hearsay - often dishonestly presented as "contemporaneous, eye witness, accounts".

You're wrong again. I heard a lot of arguments but, thus far, not one has ever stood up to critical examintion. They're all based on emotion and wishful thinking.