@badminton Denomination has nothing whatsoever to do with salvation. His plan was for all, not just some, and not just some who go to church or whatever. Salvation is not based on our performance/good works or self effort. It is a gift. You can't earn a gift, but you can accept it and receive it.
@LeopoldBloom The mormon religon adds another gospel (testament ) So they are under the curse revealed in the book of Revelation that says that if anyone adds to the Gospel the judgements written in the Bible will be added to them..
Revelation 22: " {18} For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, [c=4C0073]If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book[/c]:"
(2 Corinthians 11:4) "For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom [c=4C0073]we have not preached[/c], or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or [c=4C0073][u]another gospel[/u][/c], which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him."
@Adstar Considering that the books of the Bible didn't exist in their present form when Revelation was written, it's rather arbitrary to say which ones are official canon. Catholics and Eastern Orthodox include the Apocrypha (which were written before the New Testament), while Protestants don't, even though Protestantism didn't exist until the 16th century.
Since the Book of Mormon doesn't preach "another Jesus," or "another gospel," it doesn't violate Revelation anyway.
@LeopoldBloom When the council of Nicea was held the books called the Apocrypha where not accepted as Canon,, that being 100% inspired by God.. they where given their own lesser qualification deuterocanonical.. Meaning they did not receive the support of the Bishops as being inspired by God.. But the catholic church kept them in circulation.. The catholic religion only later declared them Canon and this was a reaction in 1400ds when the protestants produced the 66 book protestant Bible and rejected the Apocrypha which where not accepted as Canon in the council of nicea in the 300ds...
[quote] Since the Book of Mormon doesn't preach "another Jesus," or "another gospel," it doesn't violate Revelation anyway.[/quote]
Of course the Book of Mormon is another gospel claimed to have been delivered by an angel called moroni.. Of course the Bible warned about gospels being delivered by angels..
(Galatians 1:8) "But though we, [c=4C0073]or an angel from heaven[/c], preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, [c=4C0073]let him be accursed[/c]."
The Gospel warning was a prophecy that came true. Twice..
The Mormons are accursed along with Moroni...
The muslims also are accursed because they also declare they received the quran from an angel..
And a question to you Leopold.. Why are you,, being a Jew,, asking questions about the legitimacy or otherwise of claimed Christian denominations? Just seems weird to me..
@Adstar I was raised Jewish but no longer follow the religion and am an atheist. However, I have an interest in religion and in exposing the hypocrisy of supposedly religious people like you.
@LeopoldBloom [quote]@Adstar I was raised Jewish but no longer follow the religion and am an atheist. However, I have an interest in religion and in exposing the hypocrisy of supposedly religious people like you.[/quote]
Well i am interested in sharing Biblical Christianity.. The Words of Jesus.. Now i have little motivation on trying to claim that i am a perfect like Jesus.. I am Not the equal of Jesus.. Religion is not about the religous.. Religon is about the religon.. The Message of the Torah or the New testament or the hindu Vedas or the Zend-avesta of the Zoastrians or the quran of islam..
I am not bothered about the failures of a Jew in following the Torah or a Hindu who does something against the teachings in the Vedas Because in the end that means NOTHING to the actual truth or falsities within the scriptures which those people believe..
So if you want to spend your time pointing out how a Christian has failed to be a perfect reflection of The LORD Jesus then go for it.. But in the end that cannot disprove the validity of the Holy Bible.. It cannot disprove the existence of God..
@Adstar You say that someone must exercise their free will to believe in Jesus. You claim that you have done this. I say that I'm incapable of choosing to believe in Jesus, because to me, Christianity (along with every other religion) is illogical, absurd, and incoherent. I can no more will myself to believe in Jesus than I can will myself to believe in L. Ron Hubbard and the Church of Scientology.
If your belief is based on free will, then you should be able to force yourself to [i]not[/i] believe for the next five minutes. Just like I could choose to put on a different shirt for the next five minutes. If you can't do it, then your belief clearly [i]isn't[/i] based on free will, so it's unreasonable for you to say that I have to do something that you're incapable of doing.
@LeopoldBloom [quote]@Adstar You say that someone must exercise their free will to believe in Jesus. You claim that you have done this. I say that I'm incapable of choosing to believe in Jesus, because to me, Christianity (along with every other religion) is illogical, absurd, and incoherent. I can no more will myself to believe in Jesus than I can will myself to believe in L. Ron Hubbard and the Church of Scientology.[/quote]
Well the only two conclusions i can come to from that is that you either are suffering from a lot of misunderstandings about the Word of God.. OR.. You are an evil person.. I hope you are suffering from a lot of misunderstandings and that one day God will cause you to understand..
[quote]!f your belief is based on free will, then you should be able to force yourself to not believe for the next five minutes. Just like I could choose to put on a different shirt for the next five minutes. If you can't do it, then your belief clearly isn't based on free will, so it's unreasonable for you to say that I have to do something that you're incapable of doing.[/quote]
No.. Water is wet... Can i believe for a minute that Water is Dry when i know without a doubt Water is Wet? I cannot force myself to believe something i know is untrue.. Again you either don't know what free will actually is.. Or you have a fault in your thinking ability.. I never said you have to do anything.. I share the message of Jesus and allow other people to make their own free willed decision weather to accept the Message of reject the Message... Of course with this topic the consequences to an individual's decision is the most extreme beyond imagination.. But no one has ever said that there where no consequences about this issue or about most issues we make decisions on in every day life..
@Adstar I can't force myself to believe in something untrue either. Saying Christianity is true sounds to me like saying water isn't wet. But it sounds like you're saying that your belief in Jesus is based on your understanding of reality, so it's [i]not[/i] based on free will. If it was, you could choose to reject the message. If you can't choose to reject it, it's hypocritical for you to demand that I exercise my free will and force myself to believe in something I know to be false.
Since you've just admitted that your belief isn't based in free will, maybe you can accept that mine isn't either.
@LeopoldBloom [quote]Saying Christianity is true sounds to me like saying water isn't wet. But it sounds like you're saying that your belief in Jesus is based on your understanding of reality, so it's not based on free will.[/quote]
Your speaking jibberish now.. Understanding of reality stops free will?? there is no basis for this un-linked conclusion..
[quote] If it was, you could choose to reject the message.[/quote]
If i hated the message i would have rejected it... I loved the message.. My consience was and is moved to know it is moral and true.. The Message it'self is the attractant and the repulse.. If your spirit is in alighment with Gods will you will be attracted to it.. Being rightious in Spirit is the Key to loving the Message.. If your spirit is repulsed by the message then you will reject it.. There are some who because of life experiences can later accept the Message after once rejecting the message in their younger years..
[quote]If you can't choose to reject it, it's hypocritical for you to demand that I exercise my free will and force myself to believe in something I know to be false. [/quote]
I have never demanded that at all.. Now you are projecting things upon me that i have never stated.. You are free to accept or reject what ever you wish to in relation to God.. But again choices have consequences and in this case there is an Eternal consequence.. That Eternal consequence should make one mindful to seriously investigate the Message.. But even the consequences cannot force you to accept the Word of God as much as the positive consequences never caused me to accept the Message... The message itself does the moving.. Not the Eternal gift or the Eternal wrath..
[quote]force myself to believe in something I know to be false.[/quote]
Well you don't know it is false... No one can disprove the existence of God.. Therefore you belief that God does not exist is a 100% faith based belief..
[quote]Since you've just admitted that your belief isn't based in free will, maybe you can accept that mine isn't either.[/quote]
Ive admitted no such thing.. And you projection doesn't change that..
@Adstar I am no more free to accept or reject salvation than you are. Again, if your belief in God is subject to free will, then prove it by choosing to not believe in God for five minutes. If you can't do it, at least have the decency to admit that your belief has nothing to do with free will.
@LeopoldBloom [quote]I am no more free to accept or reject salvation than you are. Again, if your belief in God is subject to free will, then prove it by choosing to not believe in God for five minutes.[/quote]
Why? We already went that route before we met Jesus Christ and received Him as Savior and Lord. Why should we go through that route again? It doesn't make sense?
@GodSpeed63 You can still force yourself to do something you don't want to do. I don't like beets, but I can force myself to eat them. So if your belief is truly based in free will, you can force yourself to disbelieve for a few minutes even if you don't want to do it and wouldn't enjoy it. If you can't force yourself to disbelieve, then your belief isn't based in free will.
