@Human1000 Last October, I visited the Greek island of Patmos which is home to the Cave of the Apocalypse ie where the Book of Revelations is believed to have been written and, the monastery of St John the Divine ie the believed writer of The Book of Revelations.
I've got two tattoos, one on my left arm and one on my right. The one on my left is the Star of David, the one on my right is the Ichthys symbol, thought to be the oldest Christian symbol.
While I was walking around the monastery, a monk came and asked to see the tattoo on my left arm. He was concerned that it was a seven pointed star and a pagan symbol. I showed him both and explained my thoughts re having them. Simply that Jesus was a Jew and that, without Judaism there would be no Christianity.
@room101 Like most ancient religions, it didn't have a name, it was just the beliefs of the Israelites. Same with the ancient Greeks, Egyptians, Romans, and so on. The ancient Germanic tribes who believed in Odin didn't have a structured religion with a name. The belief in Odin was just the common superstition of the Germanic people.
@BohemianBoo "Like most ancient religions, it didn't have a name,......"
erm........not so sure about that but fine. In any event, the Talmud is essentially a record of the debates carried out about law, the philosophy of Judaism and, Biblical interpretation.
More specifically, the word Talmud means to study, to learn and refers to the study and learning of the Torah. So no, Judaism was not established with the Talmud.
@room101 The Talmud is widely considered the most important book of Judaism. Before that, the beliefs of the ancient Israelites were pretty different and less of an organized religion. I'd compare it to how much of European Paganism was absorbed into Christianity, but Christianity wasn't established as an actual organized religion until far after European Paganism.
@BohemianBoo Hence why the belief system was debated by Rabbi's. Like every other belief system, it began as an oral tradition ie passed from one person to another via the spoken word.
Then the Torah was purportedly written by Moses.
Later, the Rabbinic debates I mentioned above ensued. So, the Talmud was written for clarification and general guidance. So yes, it's an important text. MOST important.........I couldn't say🤷♂️
Again, Judaism was not established with or by the Talmud.
@room101 But it was with the establishment of the Talmud that Judaism became an actual religion with rules, as opposed to just stories that were commonly believed among the Israelites. Plus, if the Talmud is the most important book of Judaism, how can Judaism have existed without it? It's like saying Christianity existed before the New Testament.
@room101 It existed before the New Testament was written down in the Bible. But the stories of the New Testament, which were written down, are what defined the establishment of Christianity. Same thing with the Talmud.
No, but formal rules are one of the defining features of religions. The rules of the Talmud define Judaism. However, not all religions have formal rules, so they're defined by beliefs and traditions and such.
By the way, there is some inconsistency here. You're saying that both Christians and Jews believe in the Hebrew Bible, but belief in only the Hebrew Bible is Judaism. Why Judaism and not Christianity? My view makes more sense. Ancient Israelite religion is its own thing, when added with the Christian Bible it's Christianity, when added with the Talmud it's Judaism. Another good comparison is Mormonism. Belief in Christianity is not Mormonism. Believe in Christianity plus the Book of Mormon is Mormonism.
@BohemianBoo No mate. Not at all. I'm an Orthodox Christian. Our denomination of Christianity began with the Resurrection. It began with Christ telling his disciples to go out and create His Church.
The process of "creating His Church" involved spreading the gospels orally and in various written forms.
And before you accuse me of relying on some kind of mythical reasoning, those written texts are tangible items.
@room101 You'd have to prove the resurrection happened first. Most impartial scholars agree that Christianity in all its forms begins with the beliefs of the New Testament. I'd say that Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy began with the Great Schism.
Saying that the Germanic religion actually began with the birth of Odin, that's not exactly secular thinking.
"You're saying that both Christians and Jews believe in the Hebrew Bible, but belief in only the Hebrew Bible is Judaism. Why Judaism and not Christianity?"
Wait, WHAT?
Let's clarify a little here. Let's use the terminology most can recognise
The Bible (ie the book that Christians refer to as The Bible) is made up of The Old Testament and The New Testament.
The Old Testament is the story of the Jews.
The New Testament is the story of Christ and Christianity.
Now let's go a step further. Islam. Islam incorporates both the Old and New Testaments with one major distinction. It does not accept Christ as the Son of God. He is basically relegated to that of any other prophet. Islam then adds the teachings of Muhammad who declares himself as the final prophet.
@BohemianBoo There you go with the word MOST again. Meanwhile, you're the only one saying such stuff.
Mate, seriously, read up on the history of Christianity. One doesn't have to prove that the Resurrection happened. We can see, in the historical record, the rise of a new belief system called Christianity.
Initially, the devotees of this new religion were persecuted (hence the Ichthys symbol that I have on my right arm, it was essentially a secret symbol used by Christians).
Some 400 years later, Catholicism began. At that time, what we now identify as followers of the Orthodox and Catholic denominations were ONE CHURCH.
The Great Schism happened in 1054 over a combination of disagreements relating to doctrine and politics.
@room101 [quote]There you go with the word MOST again. Meanwhile, you're the only one saying such stuff.
Mate, seriously, read up on the history of Christianity. One doesn't have to prove that the Resurrection happened. We can see, in the historical record, the rise of a new belief system called Christianity.[/quote]
Do I really have to prove that secular scholars consider Christianity to have begone with the belief in the teachings of the New Testament, as opposed to the Resurrection, which is mythology? We don't know if the Resurrection happened. All we know is that at some point, people believe it did. And that marks the beginning of Christianity.
[quote]Now let's go a step further. Islam. Islam incorporates both the Old and New Testaments with one major distinction. It does not accept Christ as the Son of God. He is basically relegated to that of any other prophet. Islam then adds the teachings of Muhammad who declares himself as the final prophet.[/quote]
So even though parts of the Old Testament are part of Islam, the religion of the Old Testament is not Islam. Likewise, it's not Judaism, though the Old Testament is part of both Judaism and Christianity.
[quote]The Old Testament is the story of the Jews.[/quote]
I really think this is where most of the confusion comes from. The people you're referring to weren't the Jews, the Jews didn't exist as an ethnic group yet. When the Bible and Torah are translated, these people are usually referred to as Jews, but they're actually "Israelites" or "Hebrews." The term "Jew" came about later to describe the people who believed in Judaism. Israelite Christians were not seen as Jews. Today, the term has evolved and Jewishness is defined by ancestry, not religion. But the beginning of the ethnicity was the establishment of Judaism.
[quote]Some 400 years later, Catholicism began. At that time, what we now identify as followers of the Orthodox and Catholic denominations were ONE CHURCH.[/quote]
Yes, I know. That's why I said Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism began with the Great Schism. Before that, neither church existed, they were born out of the Great Church splitting.
