Skeptics, Where Is Your Evolution History?

@ArishMell [quote]We all know you think the ancient Hebrew stories must never be questioned, analysed or have their history examined, even by believers in God.[/quote]

You keep calling the accounts in the Word of God myths, yet you haven't been able to show that they are myths. What does that say about your analytical study?

@GodSpeed63 That's not what I said.

Nor did I claim to have written an "analytical study".

I said you think the Biblical stories must never be questioned or analysed; even by believers in God - including what you and I are not, professional theologians and historians.

The weirder stories are myths by sheer logic. You don't need be a cleric or scientist or a historian to see that, but you need do be open to the difference between believing in the existence of God and in ancient ideas [i]about[/i] what God did.

Open to, to pondering the possible motives of the Hebrew scribes and their Year 0 model.

I don't know why you despise trying to learn and understand - but do [i]you[/i] know?

I asked your motive - do you have one?

We all know you evade awkward questions....

@ArishMell [quote]I said you think the Biblical stories must never be questioned or analysed; even by believers in God - including what you and I are not, professional theologians and historians. [/quote]

Learn to spell. There are true believers in Christ, then there are religious fanatics who try to use Christ for their own purposes; of what are you referring to? My God is all knowing, those professional theologians and historians are not all knowing. Whose word do you think I'll accept as truth?

@GodSpeed63 We were talking about pre-Christ, ancient Hebrew beliefs; though those teachings formed the Jewish religion of Jesus and His Disciples, and their society generally; and were adopted and adapted by Christianity when that evolved long after Jesus' death.

I accept sincere belief in God: some of my friends are religious, and two are ordained priests. On the other hand I accept sincere belief that God's existence is at least unlikely. Why that ambivalence? Because neither side can prove it!

I accept there are many religions with their own sects and shades of opinion within them, around the world. You seem unable to accept any but yours - however hard you try to blame it on God or the Bible.

I am interested in what other people believe, and why. You are not.

I know and accept there is no unique path to God. You know and push only one narrow version of one faith as if it is the only one.

I know perfectly whose words you accept. Only those whose views accord with yours - and if they don't, you dismiss them even when they know far more about religions and their histories than either you or I.

The difference is that I like to learn something of that history and background, hence try to understand others' beliefs; and from those professionals.

You reject any learning.

'
"Learn to spell"... Sorry, I am not sure which word is wrong. Not some TransAtlantic difference is it? I wasn't aware this thread is an exercise in the English Language! :-)

@ArishMell [quote]I accept there are many religions with their own sects and shades of opinion within them, around the world. You seem unable to accept any but yours - however hard you try to blame it on God or the Bible. [/quote]

I'm not religious, not in the term you're used to. What am supposed to be blaming God about? Religion has done more damage to people than we realize. It's not about religion, ArishMell, never has been or ever will be about religion. It's all about a close relationship with our Father in Heaven, through Jesus Christ, our Lord, by His Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth. You spelled analyses wrong.

@GodSpeed63 then why use the bible for your argument?
And if one has a close inner relationship with god, why create inflamatory posts where you love to argue and enrage people ?

You do this time and time again . In fact, its almost your SW persona.

Why would someone who claims to have such a closeness with god, want to deliberately do such things?

Shouldn't one, who feels close to god, spread peace and love instead ?

I too an curious as to your intention of this post .
What was its purpose?

@ArishMell its interesting that sometimes 'manner' tells you more about a person's spirituality, than their facts or reasons of argument.

I like your passive curiosity.

@Nunatak [quote]then why use the bible for your argument?[/quote]

The Word of God is not a religious book as you suppose it is.

@GodSpeed63 then what is the word of god as you see it?

@Nunatak Thank you!

I do wonder about GodSpeed's saying he's "not religious" but I [i]think[/i] he means not belonging to a formal religion.

I can accept believing in the Hebrew / Christian God outlined in the Bible without using an established Jewish or Christian church - which might be GodSpeed's way.

I can respect someone being unable to explain himself; but I object to his determination that only his opinion has any validity and must not be questioned.

Also, if I were a practising Christian - of any sect or none - I would object to his determination that no-one should try to understand and appreciate God's actual Creation rather than how the ancients thought it.

[ I am of nominally-Anglican background; and among my friends are two ordained priests.] @GodSpeed63

@ArishMell i was bought up roman catholic, andi can honestly say it never sat well within my heart. Silken robes with ornate gold candleholders, while some parishers were poor as shit. Confession to a priest whi can absolve you .....it all seemed horribly wrong.

The more i learn about religions and faith and consciousness, the more i believe in something somewhere that is great and awesome and wants goodness in all.
And im just smart enough to know i know so little, but open enough to seek and question.

And as much as i have my own gutfelt opinions, id find it pointless to just openly decide to critcise and/or deride others over something, that changes nothing.

It seems to me, not for debate or philosophical banter, but more 'arguing for arguments sake'.
Which , in my limited understanding, isnt Christian 🤷‍♀️

As i said ......manner can speak volumes.

@Nunatak I see.

Well, I think that manner of the RC Church was largely what led to the Reformation; and it does have a terrible history of being very [i]un[/i]-Christian to women and children. Though a lot of other faiths and sects are not much better.

I am not a believer but I can appreciate a spiritual yearning for something far beyond anything Earthly, including beyond Earth-bound religious institutions.

@GodSpeed63 LOL!

I did not use the plural noun "analyses" ! :-)

I used the verb "analysed", in its past tense - though as I also said, this is not a literary debate.

@ArishMell i was trying to work out where your spelling mistake was myself.

Apparently spelling is cruicial to gods perspective 🤭

@ArishMell [quote]I used the verb "analysed", in its past tense - though as I also said, this is not a literary debate.[/quote]

You still misspelled the word. Anyway, that's not the issue. Where is your version of history to replace the historical events recorded in Word of God which you claim are myth.

@GodSpeed63 The [i]historical [/i]events in the Bible are one thing although probably very distorted, and full of inaccuracies at source let alone later translators and editors - propaganda, if you like. (Oh all right you won't like, but tough.)

The [i]myths[/i] are the obvious twaddle like the Ark story, Jonah and the sea-monster, and the implication that we are all descended from one couple's incestuous offspring at some wildly guessed-at time BCE. These fables don't stack up to an ounce of simple logic; but may have backgrounds in pre-Hebrew religions and shamanist practices.

There [i]might [/i]be a historical basis that has occurred to me, in the Hebrew scribes and Elders apparently ignoring anything and everything before their tribal society; and that is a mixture of simple but genuine ignorance, with a wish to suppress older beliefs. So perhaps they invented a mystical "Year 0" story out of cultural arrogance. Did they do that? We have known at least one regime try such in our times, but I have no idea if the likes of Moses and David did -[i] and nor do you.[/i]

The difference between you and me is that you are not prepared to separate your belief in God from a belief in a few unknown scribes in one relatively small society in a Late Bronze Age, peri-Mediterranean world of all sorts of religions and fables. Are not prepared to accept any but the few cultures mentioned in the Old Testament times, even existed - as the anthology implies. Yet the Hebrews must obviously have their own ancestors beyond the few they named.... real and invented.

You will not open your heart and mind to the vast flood of historical and scientific knowledge all around us. By all means believe in God, but you don't need believe in irrational, 3000 year old, human ignorance and myths about Earthly people and events, to do so.

Where do I learn? A wide variety of publications - mainly books and radio lectures, including by people who know a damn' sight more about religion generally than you and I, over very many years. Modern, general knowledge of both theology and science you want no-one to know.

The books are [i]not[/i] the "Word of God". They are the words of [i]humans[/i] inspired by their [i]belief[/i] in a certain god to express their religious [i]beliefs[/i]. That is very different from thinking that God wrote them. That some of their own writers claim them so, is merely a sort of circular "logic" with no corroboration.

They are a guide to the ideas of an ancient culture who gave a basic description on a specific god - "God" - and are the foundation books of a belief in that God.

@ArishMell [quote]They are a guide to the ideas of an ancient culture who gave a basic description on a specific god - "God" - and are the foundation books of a belief in that God.[/quote]

In other words, you have nothing, ArishMell. Thank you.

@GodSpeed63 I have lots. YOU are the one with nothing because you are frightened to open your mind and heart. Thank-[i]you[/i]

@ArishMell (to Godspeed63: Are your questions meant to inspire serious, deep theological and philosophical debate... or what?

I'd say " or what", given his previous answers....

@jackieash Indeed. I think he just likes picking a fight.

@ArishMell @jackieash [quote]YOU are the one with nothing because you are frightened to open your mind and heart. [/quote]

My heart and mind are open to what's true and not to what can fit my agenda. My question challenges those who claim that Word of God is a myth and not reliable without evidence or facts to support that claim.

@GodSpeed63 You have contradicted yourself yet again. Your heart and mind are [i]not[/i] open to anything except only you own, deeply religious idea of what is "God's Word", and you reject, despise, insult any other.

You can't even accept that you can understand and appreciate all that modern science is discovering about the universe, the development of life etc, but still believe it all God's work.

Indeed, to believe not only that it is God's work, but that as the Science you hate shows us, His Creation is far, far older, more complicated, more wonderful, majestic and beautiful than the sort of spontaneous-generation model that the Ancient Hebrews had to adopt.

The ancients though had a genuine excuse. They had no choice. They [i]genuinely[/i] could not have known. Even the Classical Greeks, who were much more technically advanced than the other cultures around them, were equally, genuinely ignorant about Nature beyond what was obviously clear to the naked eye.

You do not have that excuse. Theologically and intellectually, you are more than lazy. You refuse to know because you think knowledge sinful in some way. No wonder people ridicule you.

You are rather like the Taliban. They too appear to think that anything not mentioned - and approved if not actually commanded - in their scripture cannot exist, must be considered as wrong and to be suppressed. (Unless of course, personally useful, like the Internet.)