Skeptics, Where Is Your Evolution History?

@SomeMichGuy [quote]Huh? The Word is not a science text,[/quote]

The Word of God is more than that, it's recorded history of mankind.

@GodSpeed63 It is not a science text.

If it were meant to have answers, it would give them clearly.

It's the record of *one* group's experiences with that entity, in Scripture, proper.

Then a larger group is brought into the fold in the New Testament.

But these are told from the human point of view; even the visions are hurriedly written down by the seer.

Let the words speak for themselves.

@SomeMichGuy [quote]If it were meant to have answers, it would give them clearly.[/quote]

It did. What part didn't you understand?

@GodSpeed63 It does not give clear answers even to basic questions which a believer or seeker might have.

And as for science, it is wholly inadequate.

@SomeMichGuy Well yes up to a point. The Bible had many things that I learned long before I read any article about it, like fasting and praying. When I read that God wants us to fast I started doing that on a regular basis in highschool once a month for 3 days. Now they have discovered its very healthy to do so.

@Carazaa Yes, that's true.

The few items like that don't give us a whole science.

@SomeMichGuy There are thousands of little science truths in the bible. If there wasn't I wouldn't be talking about the Bible all the time. God dictates the universe. One scientific fact is that if you give 10% of your gross income to a Christian gospel mission before any purchases or paying bills God will bless you financially. God has asked us to "test me in this if I will not pour down a blessing" This is a scientific fact just like if you fast you will be healthier. The Bible is full of promises. One big one is "all things turn out for good, for those who love God" These are scientific promises that we can test God on.

@Carazaa

The fasting, eating lentils, these are guidelines /ideas related to health and [b]can[/b] be studied scientifically.

[u][i]Scientifically[/i] means it has to be measurable and repeatable.[/u] There is a whole bunch of stuff I'm omitting about experimental design, including controls, testing the null hypothesis, looking for systematic errors, etc.

Many promises in the Bible are not scientific in that, e.g., they are about what happens beyond this life, which is in the future, not accessible, and so, not measurable, and certainly not repeatable.

[i]That doesn't mean that the promises are not true, but only that they [u]cannot[/u] be an object of scientific study.[/i]

(Be advised that, for this reason alone, a certain group of people will dismiss all such promises.)

[sep]

[quote]One scientific fact is that if you give 10% of your gross income to a Christian gospel mission before any purchases or paying bills God will bless you financially. God has asked us to "test me in this if I will not pour down a blessing" This is a scientific fact just like if you fast you will be healthier.[/quote]

Two things:

1) You are being pretty free with calling things "scientific facts." A scientific fact is a fact which has been studied scientifically (as mentioned above) and proved via those scientific studies.

By claiming that the tithe promise is a scientific fact, you are claiming that it *has* been proved scientifically. Which papers using a proper scientific methodology have tested this claim? I am actually eager to know, not being sarcastic.

2) Part of being scientific is being accurate. I have read this promise, but I have NEVER read "10% of your [b]gross income to a Christian gospel mission before any purchases or paying bills[/b]"...

And it CAN'T be those words, can it, because this is from Scripture, proper, right? Malachi 3:10? Which means it predates Christians, including that word, which appears in Acts (after Jesus' death).

You tend to EXTEND the Word to either be what you want it to be, or to demand that your teaching is part of it.

This is not the case.

[quote]These are scientific promises that we can test God on.[/quote]

?? AFAIK, we are only invited to test Him about tithes.

Where does Scripture or Jesus direct us to test Him generally? Are you not familiar with the injunction NOT to test him?

@Carazaa You have a very different notion of "scientific".

God gives us no classical physics, no relativistic physics, no quantum physics...He doesn't tell us the fundamental constants, etc.

You can't stretch a few health guidelines to cover all of science.

@SomeMichGuy @ElwoodBlues Science is Gods creation. Here is a video about the Bibles scientific proof of Gods amazing world, by someone who majored from Oxford. His expertice is mathematics and he has many videos about Bible timeline of 6000 years, but this video is science in the Bible.
1. Astronomy
[media=https://youtu.be/6ovec43ktC4]
2. Thermodynamics
[media=https://youtu.be/As066VebiCE]
3. Ocean currents
[media=https://youtu.be/yX5ile0gBCo]
4. Gravity
[media=https://youtu.be/v29uQr0_wpw]
5. Modern discoveries
[media=https://youtu.be/BKvIGeAkIxg]
6. Modern Discoveries 2
[media=https://youtu.be/Txw0Yoxvy6Q]
7. Creation or evolution
[media=https://youtu.be/4KTy2CrGTe4]
8. Is Evolution a scientific fact?
[media=https://youtu.be/h8f25UgKPJk]
9. Evolution cont'd
[media=https://youtu.be/OfdNrcLnsHM]
10 is Evolution fact?
https://youtu.be/1VG2BlKV_ok

@SomeMichGuy
Continued Evolution 4
10 is Evolution fact?
https://youtu.be/1VG2BlKV_ok
11. Evolution Cont'd
https://youtu.be/ydwCzN4PJT0
12. Dinosaurs
https://youtu.be/RViwbPJh3rY
13. Is evolution accurate
https://youtu.be/SfR93AOmmk4

@Carazaa To get technical, science is not God's creation; the creation has a regularity and structure which make it amenable to scientific study (and allows us to even exist and have a long enough culture that it has reached the level it *has*).

Science is a creation of humanity, though I would agree that its creation falls within the meaning of humanity being in some sense created in the Image of the One Who Is.

And I do agree that a proper understanding of some elements of theology should dovetail with a proper science.

But an example of this, for *me*, is that the fundamentally probabilistic underpinnings of creation--not deterministic!--means that there is ALWAYS a built-in backdoor for miracles...though the interpretation of any individual event is ultimately a matter of faith, since the very notion of infinite ensembles makes it impossible to decide. And I think that the inherent, delicious ambiguity is actually intended by a God who challenges us to simply see the glass of life as half-FULL, to begin a walk with Him which has limitless potential, in the fullness of eternity.

But to pretend that the Bible is a science text is absurd.

The *pastor*--the guy who apparently did study mathematics at Oxford--is an outlier. Most people in science do not agree with him.

More to the point, though, in the very first video, about Astronomy, his FIRST "proof" is an intentional misreading of the text. His specific claim is that the Bible teaches about the vastness of space:

[quote]Biblical Claim 1: Space is immense - beyond man's ability to measure it.[/quote]

but he cites

[quote]Deuteronomy 10:14:

"Indeed HEAVEN and the HIGHEST HEAVENS belong to the Lord your God, also the earth with all that is in it."
[/quote]

[i]This does [u]not[/u] say either that space is immense or that it is beyond humanity's ability to measure it.[/i]

He then quotes

[quote]Job 22:12:

And is not God in the HEIGHT of HEAVEN? And see the HIGHEST stars, how LOFTY they are![/quote]

[i]Again, this does NOT say either that space is immense, or that it is beyond our ability to measure.[/i]

And even his knowledge of science is off, because we DO have means of getting an idea of how "lofty" stars are.

There is no need for me to watch hours when the guy

• misappropriates the Biblical text to try to make an alternate point (in particular, he uses the poetic statements of people marvelling at the heavens & at God to pretend that the Bible is making scientific statements),

• misrepresents science

in the first claim in the first video of his "amazing" series.

He does the same thing which you do--he ADDs to the Word to create an alternate claim, and insists it's true.

Your faith should not be so fragile that you have to accept "alternate facts"...

@SomeMichGuy🙏
[quote]
[quote]And I think that the inherent, delicious ambiguity is actually intended by a God who challenges us to simply see the glass of life as half-FULL, to begin a walk with Him which has limitless potential, in the fullness of eternity.
[/quote]

Thank you for this, and I agree.

And yes he is an outsider of most theologians. His studies are more detailed and intense. There are others as educated and detailed, and they come to the same solution about the timeline of the Bible, that we are 6000 years, therefore some scientists have jumped to conclusions that we have an old earth.

Most Nobel scientists came from very Christian families who studied the bible. The Bible was their foundation. Then ofcourse they went into a specific field of science and did their own research. My family have world famous scientists in their fields. However, I for one have always wanted my knowledge to come from the Bible. And yes It is a book of miracles, and we must not ignore it if we want truth, no matter how intense our scientific studies and reseach.

@Carazaa

[quote]There are others as educated and detailed and they come to the same solution about the timeline of the Bible, we are 6000 years, therefore some scientists have jumped to conclusions.[/quote]

No.
The age of the Earth simply makes no sense at an age at least 4,000 yrs too few for people being in the *Americas*, let alone the new bombshell that would make the 6,000 yrs more like 14,000 yrs too few!

You can't build science on Gen. 1-11. Before you go on a tirade, consider that that bit and Job are the two oldest parts, and [b]Job is eminently irreconcilable with the God revealed by Jesus.[/b]

You are relying on people who don't understand basic Biblical scholarship.
The OT is a record of the things which a particular group (mainly) attributed to God, but the observations are not scientific and you are looking at Ancient Hebrew records with a Greek mind!

[quote]Most Nobel scientists came from very Christian families who studied the bible and the Bible was their foundation.[/quote]

I'm not sure about your first claim, although it makes historic sense that [i]many[/i] may well have come from families which so identified.

But don't confuse "being raised in a Christian home" with "got their basic science from the Bible"; if they HAD, they'd have never gotten Nobel Prizes.

[quote]And then of course they went into a specific fields of science and did their own research.[/quote]

...yeah...that's called "being a scientist."
??

[quote]My family have world famous scientists in their fields.[/quote]

Wow! Neat! Which fields?

[quote]But I for one have always gotten my knowledge from the Bible.[/quote]

Not all of your knowledge. It doesn't even answer reasonable questions of theology, let alone of science or of "everything".

[quote]It is a book of miracles, and we must not ignore it if we want truth, no matter how intense our scientific studies and research lead us.[/quote]

The Bible is mostly about issues beyond natural science--morality, ethics, proper relationships between people & between people & God, etc.

It is not a science book. Period.

Nor does it claim to be.

@Carazaa
[quote]And yes he is an outsider of most theologians.His studies are more detailed and intense.[/quote]

No, his "studies" are NOT detailed, as I just showed you. They are intensely stupid, because they

• distort the Word
• misinterpret the Word
• misunderstand science

He should get back his money from Oxford in areas beyond mathematics.

[quote]There are others as educated and detailed and they come to the same solution about the timeline of the Bible, we are 6000 years, therefore some scientists have jumped to conclusions.[/quote]

I have no doubt that other fools who distort the Word are able to agree with him.

That does not make them correct.

It certainly does not make scientists wrong.

Again, I drew attention to the words he put on his first points of his first video, and his reading of the Word is WRONG. You can't go along with his misreading and say the Bible claims ANYthing, because he plays too fast and loose!

You seem to like stretching the Word to be other than what the plain meaning is.
This puts you, and people like this "pastor", squarely in error.

You need to be able to deal with the Word as it is, using REAL Biblical scholarship in BOOKS, not YT videos, before you go further.

You are welcome to believe as you will, but you REALLY need to stop distorting the Word, adding your personal interpretations as required, and reading it in an uninformed fashion (real Biblical scholarship is always helpful, but particularly in Gen. 1-11; just reading about time expressions can help).

Believe as you will, but your dependence on willful misreaders is disturbing.

@SomeMichGuy
You simply don't study the Bible enough to understand its scientific and mathematical meanings. I am not only concluding the age of the Bible because of Genesis, I have studied his word for over 50 years and he discloses his secrets to those who search them out, and want truth. I know God and we are at the end of time, and the age of Satans deception about a lot of things. You are deceived!

God is disclosing his timeline [i]now[/i] to us. You don't have to trust me but the scientists are dead wrong and you are totally deceived by their jumping to conclusions with their research.
The Bible is absolutely a 6000 year timeline of humanity. We know that Jesus is coming any day in[i] our [/i]generation. Most pastors are asleep as Jesus hinted at in Matthew 24, but I know, and so do a few others.

Have a good night!

@SomeMichGuy
Here is a website of the math of Sabbaths that explains the Book of Daniel

https://www.1260-1290-days-bible-prophecy.org/Jubilee-missing-Sabbaths.htm

And my summary of the timeline of man and that we are at the end, it's on my profile

https://similarworlds.com/spirituality/3715551-We-are-the-only-generation-that-has-seen-ALL-the
And please be careful that you don't join the rest of the world God warned us.

[quote][b]"Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation? 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.[/b][/quote]

@SomeMichGuy
Here is a detailed timeline of the Bible that he did [media=https://youtu.be/VDb0ujAIC9o]

@SomeMichGuy
Here is another guy that has really done fabulous studies on the Bible timeline too, and its not as detailed but he is right on!
[media=https://youtu.be/idWIsc-YBHI]

@Carazaa

[quote]You simply don't study the Bible enough to understand its scientific and mathematical meanings.[/quote]

No.
I HAVE studied science, and math, and the Bible. They are not the same.

In terms of "science", the real crux is that the whatever vision was seen by a person ca. 1850 BC/BCE, [b]Genesis 1 & 2 record the impressions of people of THAT time, with THEIR powers of observation; they are [u]pre-scientific[/u] and had no comprehension of things that, say, Stephen Hawking would know.[/b] If our observer of tge vision of Genesis ch. 1 had been Stephen Hawking, we'd have a different notion of this.

[b]More importantly, does Jesus require us to think of the Bible as science? Does your salvation depend upon it? Does mine? NO. So stop trying to burden people more than Jesus would.[/b]

[sep]

In terms of math, of course you can add up ages and get to a young Earth. I think a bishop in Ulster was one of the first modern people to do so. [b]I'm sorry, but the God who gave us the laws of physics and an amazing brain has left clues of all sorts to show us that Creation is more amazing and rich and [u]older[/u] than you and these poor misled people believe.[/b]

You can also descend into Kabbalah, which is numerology. Numerology is a big deal for people who get into the numbers.

Adding numbers and using repeated "special" numbers (e.g., 40) is not the same as "mathematical knowledge" or "mathematical teaching".

[b]Again, does Jesus require us to think of the Bible as math, or accept anyone's timeline(s)? Does your salvation depend upon it? Does mine? NO. So stop trying to burden people more than Jesus would.[/b]

[sep]

And if you believe in the notion of humanity being created in the "image" of God, surely that includes our amazing minds.

People have labored for years to understand all manner of thing, and science has been carefully assembled, reassembled, etc., over many years, with new knowledge building on the old, just as with mathematics, just as with the Bible.

You resist and ignore the idea of getting familiar with actual Biblical scholarship, and instead have allowed yourself to be steered by those who cannot simply read a passage, or put it into the local context, or a broader context.

People have been doing REAL science--not pretending that the notes of a vision from perhaps just under 4,000 years ago are science, or other armchair science pursuits--for millenia.

People have been doing REAL mathematics--not merely adding a few numbers or pretending tbat numerology has meaning, or other armchair math pursuits--for millenia.

And people have been reading Scripture for millenia, and the New Testament for nearly two millenia, and there are all manner of things which ACTUAL scholarship & hermeneutics show.

But you think you are above the legions of *actual* Bible scholars, of *actual* scientists, etc. You are throwing away a huge resource and denying that others are created in the Image of the One Who Is.

For those who DO know something 9f *real* scientific study, *real* mathematical study, *real* Biblical study, you seem to summarily dismiss all of the work of all of those in those fields.

[sep]

[quote]I have studied his word for over 50 years and he discloses his secrets to those who search them out, and want truth.[/quote]

I have been in it for a similar time.

But if you are into Christianity for information, for "disclosing of secrets", you are with the various cults who try to claim they are the only ones who know "THE truth", and [b]continuing the attempt to squeeze verses to get more meaning makes no sense when you can't acknowledge the plain meaning.[/b]

Your Oxford "pastor" cannot even read a simple verse and convey it's simple meaning, so he is a false teacher. Go follow his nonsense, but YOU are deceived.

[quote]I know God[/quote]

You know *of* Him, but you worship the Word as an idol, and have raised up others whom you effectively worship (the Oxford guy and any others who feed your obsession & make you think you are "special" because you "KNOW *THE* Truth").

[quote]and we are at the end of time, and the age of Satans deception about a lot of things.[/quote]

We may or may not be there. MANY people have claimed MANY dates as being when the events of the Revelation according to John will occur.

If you had actually done a grounding of your Biblical study in actual Biblical scholarship, you'd know that scholars agree that the book of Revelations matches up very well with the fall of the Roman Empire. But the Jehovah's Witness steering group--the "Watchtower" people--have declared for certain the end if the world...at least TWICE in my lifetime.

They, and others, were deceived in the 20th century; and many before them were deceived in the 19th century and earlier. And so, now that we have a fresh crop of people claiming dates, it is hard to give credence to any in a game where we are told NO man knows the hour of his coming.

So who is deceived?

[b]And does YOUR salvation or mine depend upon accepting ANYone's timeline? NO. So stop trying to burden people more than Jesus would.[/b]

[quote]You are deceived![/quote]

Perhaps. Do you think Jesus will forgive me for not choosing the correct timeline from myriad options shrieked at me? [b]Does your salvation or mine depend upon accepting ANY of what you are going on about? NO. So stop trying to burden people more than Jesus would.[/b]

[sep]

[quote]God is disclosing his timeline now to us. You don't have to trust me but the scientists are dead wrong and you are totally deceived by their jumping to conclusions with their research.
The Bible is absolutely a 6000 year timeline of humanity. We know that Jesus is coming any day in our generation. Most pastors are asleep as Jesus hinted at in Matthew 24, but I know, and so do a few others.[/quote]

The Bible's age of the Earth comes from poor, unscientific notes & observations made by a pre-scientific people and is in one of the oldest parts of the Bible.

Scientists have been searching out the clues of the creation for many years, and they have *consistent* views which were not "jumped to", but arrived at after MANY years & measurements and tests.

The age of the Earth is also a measurement with a much larger context, but it is pretty clear from MULTIPLE lines of reasoning & evidence that an Earth which is 5,000, 5,500, or even 6,000 years old is simply *wrong*.
Look up the Wikipedia article on "consilience"--when multiple, independent lines of evidence converge on the same sort of answer, it makes more sense, and is harder to refute.

Note that God *never* made the age of the Earth a centerpiece of His statements; we don't read, "Am I not LORD of this 2,000-year-old Earth?" in the pentateuch, or Jesus saying, "Give thanks to the God of Abraham, the LORD of this 4,000-year-old Earth..."

Again, [b]does YOUR salvation or mine depend upon accepting ANYone's age of the Earth? NO. So stop trying to burden people more than Jesus would.[/b]

And you might heed this from Job 38:4-7:

[quote]4 “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements—surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone
7 when the morning stars sang together
and all the heavenly beings[a] shouted for joy?"[/quote] (NRSVUE, from [i]https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job+38%3A4-7&version=NRSVUE[/i])

@SomeMichGuy [quote]I HAVE studied science, and math, and the Bible. They are not the same.[/quote]

Never said they were, SomeMichGuy, but science was created by God for our benefit. God's Word is recorded history of mankind from beginning to end.

@Carazaa

In your un-footnoted passage from 2 Peter 3, I would urge you to consider

1) a bit from just before your quote, namely

[quote]...I am trying to arouse your sincere intention by reminding you 2 that you should remember the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken through your apostles.[/quote]

Genesis 1 is not from "the holy prophets", nor a "commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken through [our] apostles". Nor are the timeline elements from later in Genesis.

2) that, regarding the other verses from 2 Peter 3

4- I don't deny the fact of His original coming, nor of a second coming;

5- I don't deny that God is the ultimate source of Physics, and thus, the Creator;

6- I don't deny that a major flood occurred which affected the world of the ancient Hebrews;

7- I am not sure about the when and how of any coming destruction, but perhaps global warming & the inevitable wars over food/arable land and water will be this destruction.

But for you to insist you have all truth...you might read what Paulwrites when he considers how he was as Saul.

@GodSpeed63

[quote]Never said they were, SomeMichGuy,[/quote]

? You are confused. I replied to another person.

But

[/quote] but science was created by God for our benefit.[quote]

No.
It was created by people, notably Aristotle, who came up with the "scientific method", which is not inntye Bible.

[quote]God's Word is recorded history of mankind from beginning to end.[/quote]

No.
It has selected events recorded by the more ancient Hebrews, then other selected events recorded by less ancient Hebrews.

Most of history is not recorded. Your birth is not mentioned. Even WWII is not mentioned.

The book of Revelations has been studied by scholars who say that all of it can be understood in the context of the fall of the Roman Empire. So it is unclear to what extent prophecy regarding our future, now, is contained in the Bible.

[b]As I have said elsewhere, neither your salvation nor mine depends upon any interpretation of prophecies. So why try to burden people more than Jesus would?[/b]

@SomeMichGuy [quote]The book of Revelations has been studied by scholars who say that all of it can be understood in the context of the fall of the Roman Empire. So it is unclear to what extent prophecy regarding our future, now, is contained in the Bible.[/quote]

What scholars?

@GodSpeed63 smh

Actual scholars, not people who claim a title and put up a youtube video or podcast or... Not even the majority of the televangelists (who preach the "prosperity Gospel"...).

I guess you have also been guided to listen to a select group of "teachers"...