“In the beginning God created...” [Spirituality & Religion]

“What’s important to understand is how reversed the situation is from, say, a hundred years ago. Back then, Christians had to maintain by faith in the Bible that despite all appearances to the contrary, the universe was not eternal but was created out of nothing a finite time ago.
“Now, the situation is exactly the opposite. It is the atheist who has to maintain, by faith, despite all of the evidence to the contrary, that the universe did not have a beginning a finite time ago but is in some inexplicable way eternal after all. So the shoe is on the other foot. The Christian can stand confidently within biblical truth, knowing it’s in line with mainstream astrophysics and cosmology. It’s the atheist who feels very uncomfortable and marginalized today.
“Certainly there have been earlier ages when the culture was more sympathetic toward Christianity. But I think it’s indisputable that there has never been a time in history when the hard evidence of science was more confirmatory of belief in God than today.”

(William Lane Craig)

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Pikachu

Craig and Kalam's cosmological argument.
It makes a few obvious mistakes and a couple of them i've pointed out to you before.

Here are a couple of the major flaws in the argument and you may follow the link to a more detailed refutation if you are interested.

http://warp.povusers.org/grrr/kalam.html

[quote]a beginning a finite time ago[/quote]

An unfounded claim. The BBT makes no claim that the universe had a beginning, only that everything in the universe was once compressed to a singularity and that there is a point of expansion.

The characterization that something came from nothing is equally as unfounded because 1) on a quantum level we CAN see something apparently coming from nothing and 2) there is no empirical evidence that "nothing" is even a property which is possible, much less the default state.

Essentially, Craig has made a flawed syllogism because he has either misunderstood or misrepresented what the science actually tells us.

Speedyman · 70-79, M

Of course you are totally wrong. It is only in the imaginary mathematics of certain theoretical physicists Who are influenced more by their philosophy than by science that a beginning is done away with. Your link is totally wrong. In fact quite laughable in its abandonment off sense. And please don’t make out you understood it. Your argument concerning a quantum vacuum is of course nonsense because a quantum vacuum is not of course a vacuum. It’s amazing how many of these people stand reality on their head and use imaginary numbers and allsorts of a logical fallacies to get round one fact - the universe had a beginning. Of course if you’re gullible enough to believe them you can. If you believe that silly cartoons make people believe you then they are as gullible as you are. Craig is not flawed. It is your reasoning that is flawed. The problem is your reason is affected by your prejudice so that is why can never be reconciled with sense. That is why you believe that nothing can make something@Pikachu

Pikachu

@Speedyman

I'm not surprised in the least to find that your response lacks any detailed rebuttal.

If you can find a scientific resource which tells us that the big bag was not just an expansion point but an actual literal beginning then please do so or concede the point.

If you can formulate an argument or present evidence which should cause us to accept that "nothing" is even a possibility then please do so or concede the point.

The floor is yours.

Speedyman · 70-79, M

Well of course your so-called rebuttal is just to let a quote from the Internet. There is no need for me to formulate an argument. That is the problem now with atheist grovelling in the light of scientific advance and knowledge in that they are now stuck for an argument. It’s not up to us to argue the obvious it’s up to you to argue that the obvious is not true. You guys stand on your head trying to argue the things which are quite obvious to anyone with any common sense whatsoever or not true. Like the beginning has a beginning. It’s like trying to argue black is white but some people do it because they’re philosophical prejudices take them they’re not because of the science. It’s all scientific fraud and the Emperor has no clothes. But you’re one of those who think he has@Pikachu

Pikachu

@Speedyman

Oh look: just the same old criticisms and hand waving dismissals.
Imagine my surprise🤷🏻

No rebuttal, no argumentation, no [i]sources[/i], just a [i]demand [/i]that we accept that you're actually right.
Rather underwhelming, yes?

I came here simply to point out the logical flaws in your "quote from the Internet" and i thank you for making my job so easy.
I will now take my leave and allow your readers to decide for [i]themselves[/i] whether they are more convinced by reasoned argument or haughty denials.

Enjoy your thread, speedy🙂👍

Speedyman · 70-79, M

You’ve given no rebuttal or no argument whatsoever. Jus5 a link that doesn’t make sense. Same old Pikachu, bluffing away and thinking silly cartoons make up for it. There is no logic your quote from the internet. I’m just demanding you accept sense and reason; you are demanding that we stand reason on its head and accept high sounding BS in respect of your misguided philosophy. Thanks for liking my job easy. You just gullibly accept anyone who misleads you with nonsense. Let’s face it these guys might be high sounding with their arguments but they’ll curtail into absolute nothingness. Funny I thought you’d quote one of these passages you don’t understand so thanks for making my day! So your little fella can laugh his head off at you and your gullibility just the same as when you accept arguments about DNA which you obviously don’t understand either! But keep at it. One day you might come to the truth. In the beginning God....@Pikachu

redredred · M

@Speedyman When was the beginning of your godlette?

Speedyman · 70-79, M

There was no such thing as a God liked and he didn’t begin as he is eternal and outside of time. Both sides of your question are answers. We learn that as schoolboys@redredred

redredred · M

@Speedyman I asked you to prove that assertion and youve got nothing. Youre entire life is governed by a silly, unsupportable superstition without a shred of proof. All you can do is repeat baseless claims.

Speedyman · 70-79, M

As none of your comments make sense, how do you know? @redredred

Carazaa · F

@Pikachu God does not make mistakes!

BlueRidingHood

@Pikachu If you're trying to argue that the singularity giving rise to inflation always existed that would be a no. And there's little point trying to reason with these people. They're driven by a desire that accessed their survival instinct (in the reptilian part of their brains).

Speedyman · 70-79, M

You are the one deluded by some con made up from imaginary numbers! As I say when people stop believing in God they believe any nonsense put in front of them @BlueRidingHood