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God Created [Spirituality & Religion]

I will be removing all rude and condescending comments.

There are currently 829 comments and so many of them are rude and condescending!

Currently, there is a rather misleading thread which asks...

"For my creationist friends who reject that evolution has occurred: What do you consider to be the best COUNTER-EVIDENCE that evolution has occurred?"

This question is misleading. Most Creationists believe that God created a world with many Kinds of creatures and that these creatures multiplied and grew in diversity. We believe that God used genes as building blocks for creatures in the same way that we might use cement to build very different structures. Similarities between creatures that are of different Kinds are simply the result of having the same building blocks. A dome structure and a skyscraper might both use cement but the similarity means nothing. It means nothing in biology as well.

Similarities between organisms might be used to classify organisms but using similarities to make assumptions about origins is ridiculous!

I am, however, thankful that God gave each Kind of creature the genetic ability to become diverse. So, we have many kinds of birds... many breeds of dogs... etc. Some call this ability evolution... but it does not imply that dogs came from an ancient bacterial ancestor. lolol.

So, does evolution occur? Yes, within each Kind of animal, of course! Does that mean that Darwin's dream might have merit? Of course not. The intricacies of nature and the masterful use of genetic building blocks implies a Creator... an organic architect and engineer.

[media=https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U0u3-2CGOMQ]
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newjaninev2 · 56-60, F
On the contrary, the genetic evidence for Common Descent is overwhelming.

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say (or not say) when you refer to ‘kind’, but neverthelessl I’d be quite happy to walk you through the genetic evidence showing a 3.5 billion year history of common descent.
SW-User
@newjaninev2 we’ve gone over this before. It’s underwhelming… and mostly debunked now.
newjaninev2 · 56-60, F
@SW-User Have we? Oh well, let’s go over it again, shall we? That way, you’ll be able to point out to me the parts which have been debunked.
SW-User
@newjaninev2 Since you’re still in denial, and I suspect you already know that, frankly I prefer to do other things.
newjaninev2 · 56-60, F
@SW-User Your reluctance to put your claims to the test is understandable.

To assist your time constraints, I’ll begin, and you can then address each of my posts as time allows.

I’m quite happy to wait... there’s no hurry.

After all, there will be a lot to get through
SW-User
@newjaninev2 I’m not reluctant and like I said we have had this discussion before and we’ve gone over it in detail and your theory is completely debunked. You simply live in denial of the facts.

Secondly, I am in a rush because I’m trying to do other things.
Sharon · F
@SW-User What is @newjaninev2's theory? I've only seen the evidence she's posted that supports The Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection. I haven't seen her alternative theory.
SW-User
@Sharon she and I chat a long time ago. She believes in abiogenesis, meaning life happens Ed through natural processes, and that species come from evolution. Here’s the kicker, she also thinks that creation is going to fade away over time rather than the other way around.
Sharon · F
@SW-User How else could life have begun? She's also posted heaps of evidence that The Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection explains. In what way has any of that been debunked?

What do you mean by "she also thinks that creation is going to fade away over time"? I've never seen her suggest that evolution is going to stop, quite the contrary in fact and new species are being found all the time. Where do you think the COVID-19 virus came from originally and why do all the new varients keep popping up?

If, as some claim, they're the work of some creator, where did it come from? Why couldn't the unverse and everything in it have come into being the same way? Surely it's more likely that a simple amino acid occurred by random chance than an intelligent being, more complex than anything else, did. If it created the COVID-19 virus for some unknown reason, why all the variants? Couldn't it get it right first time? The Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection explains all that. Abiogenesis is another matter that the theory doesn't seek to explain, other theories are left to deal with that.
newjaninev2 · 56-60, F
@SW-User
creation is going to fade away over time rather than the other way around

What are you talking about? Being too afraid to discuss the Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection with me is understandable, but please don’t produce fictions and attribute them to me
@SW-User
Here’s the kicker, she also thinks that creation is going to fade away over time rather than the other way around.

Honestly, I've never seen @newjaninev2 say anything close to that. I was so impressed by her evolution evidence that I saved big chunks of it. Perhaps you could show us all, in the paragraphs below, where you thing that claim was made??

All species carry ‘silenced’ genes… these are genes that once caused certain proteins to be produced, but now no longer function in the original manner. Such genes are called pseudogenes.

Nearly all mammals have functional genes for expressing an enzyme (L-guluno-?-lactone oxidase) that allows the production of vitamin C, which is essential for proper metabolism.

I say ‘nearly all mammals’ because primates cannot produce their own vitamin C. In humans, there is a set of four genes that code for vitamin C production. As you may know, these genes are composed of many, many smaller units called nucleotides, so these four genes contain a very large number of such nucleotides (the human genome has 64 billion nucleotides}. The first three genes are fully functional, but the final gene in the sequence has a mutation in a single nucleotide, and this mutation prevents the sequence from completing. That’s why humans need to obtain vitamin C from their food… because the mechanism for producing it has become a pseudogene.

Across all primates (chimpanzees, bononbo, humans, and apes) not only is it the final gene in the sequence that is silenced, but within that gene the same nucleotide carries the mutation that is responsible.

Now, why would this be?

1. astonishing coincidence

2. when the gods created all the species they put genetic pathways for vitamin C production into all mammals, but then inactivated a single nucleotide from among the four genes necessary for that production, inactivated the same nucleotide in all cases, and did that only in primates. They obviously thought this to be a tremendous joke to play, because we carry around 2,000 such pseudogenes.

3. All mammals developed the ability to produce vitamin C, but around 40 million years ago, in the ancestor common to all primates, that ability was removed by a mutation in a single nucleotide, and the deficit was passed to all primates due to common descent during evolution.

Here's a bit more:
Genes direct protein production. That’s pretty much all they do (they have quite dull social lives, and don’t seem to have hobbies or outside interests). Those proteins are built up from amino acids.

The genes comprise large numbers of base-pairs, which are simply guanine matched with cytosine and adenine matched with thymine. The human genome contains around 3.2 billion of these base pairs (the largest we’ve found so far is that of the flowering plant Paris japonica, which has 150 billion base pairs. The marbled lungfish has 133 billion base pairs).

As I said, proteins are built up from amino acids. Each amino acid that is used to build the proteins is specified by three base-pairs (those blocks of three base-pairs are called codons).

Let’s look at cytochrome c (we could use any number of such proteins, but I have a fondness for cytochrome c… I like the alliteration)

The cytochrome c protein is built up from around 100 amino acids.
This means that there are 10E135 possible ways that the amino acids could be arranged… but not all of those arrangements would work, of course.
However, because there’s a high level of redundancy in the construction of cytosine c (and all proteins), a stunning 10E93 variants would still be functional.
So that’s 100,000,000,000, 000,000,000, 000,000,000, 000,000,000, 000,000,000, 000,000,000, 000,000,000, 000,000,000, 000,000,000, 000,000,000 possible ways that DNA could produce functional cytosine c.

Time to make some predictions in accordance with the Theory of Evolution, don’t you think?

1. Because evolution began from a tightly limited range of organisms, only one of those possible functional variants will have been passed down over the last 3.5 billion years.

2. Because of point mutations (among other factors), there should be evidence of extremely slight variation that has crept in over the last 3.5 billion years… after all, even high-fidelity copying systems aren’t perfect (and it would be suspicious if they appeared to be so)

3. That variation should be negligible for species that have comparatively recent common ancestors, and increase between species with more distant common ancestors… while still remaining negligible (The process is remarkably stable, so we wouldn’t expect too many of the 10E93 functional variants to have appeared).

So, what do we find?

How many amino acid differences are there between humans and other species?
To make things interesting, let’s list some species in order of how long it has been since we shared a common ancestor with each species, and then see how many amino acid differences there are between us and that species.
Chimpanzee = 0
Rhesus Monkey = 1
Rabbit = 9
Cow = 10
Pigeon = 12
Bullfrog = 20
Fruit Fly = 24
Wheat Germ = 37
Yeast = 42

Evidence-based simplicity and elegance… the Theory of Evolution

Embryology evidence:
Embryology can be very helpful in showing how our evolutionary history appears during foetal development. There are a few quick and easy examples that spring to mind from all those available: gills, blood vessels, and kidneys.

In the early stages of development, fish embryos have a series of pouches (separated by grooves) near where the head will later develop. These are called the brachial arches - they develop into gills, and the grooves between them develop into the gill slits. It‘s very straightforward.

Other vertebrates have the same structures... including humans. In fact, I once had the opportunity to see these brachial arches for myself on a foetus, and it was fascinating. They‘re not ‘sort of like’ a fish‘s brachial arches... they are a fish‘s brachial arches. They‘re morphologically completely identical.

Tiktaalik roseae, on the cusp between ocean and land, used gills and lungs, but after the move onto land, gills were superfluous. Sometimes (it‘s very rare) human gill slits fail to close, but it‘s easily corrected via minor surgery once the infant is born.

Blood vessel development in fish is, once again, basic and straightforward, producing six major blood vessels. In mammals (including humans, of course), the same six major blood vessels appear in early foetal development, but then three of them disappear at the same time that our circulatory system stops resembling that of fish and instead becomes identical to the circulatory system of embryonic amphibians. Not similar... identical.

In amphibians, this system simply grows into an adult amphibian circulatory system, but in mammals (including humans, of course) it changes into the circulatory system of embryonic reptiles. Not similar to the circulatory system of embryonic reptiles... identical.

In reptiles, this system simply grows into an adult reptilian circulatory system, but in mammals (including humans, of course), it undergoes further changes (the development of carotid, pulmonary, and dorsal arteries) to become the mammalian circulatory system.

During development, human embryos form three distinctly different types kidneys... the pronephros, the mesonephros, and the metanephros. The first two systems are discarded. The pronephros is the kidney system found in fish and amphibians, the mesonephros is the kidney system found in reptiles, and the metanephros is the kidney system that we eventually use.

From fish to amphibian to reptile to mammal.
No matter how many comforting myths we mutter to ourselves, every foetus carries the truth.

One more block:
All apes except humans have 24 pairs of chromosomes. We humans are the only apes to have 23 pairs.

Evolution made a testable prediction; That somewhere in the human genome we should find evidence of chromosomal fusion. In other words, we should be able to find a fused human chromosome with the remnants of extra telomeres and centromeres.

Since the loss of all the genes in a chromosome would have been fatal to any species, scientists reasoned that if the Theory of Evolution was correct about common ancestry, one of two things must have occurred. Either two chromosomes had fused in humans’ evolutionary past, or chromosomes had split in the other apes. Using 'Occam's Razor’, which states that among competing hypotheses, the simplest explanation is most likely the correct one, the most likely event was chromosome fusion in humans’ ancestors.

Normal chromosomes have a centromere (a chromosomal locus that ensures delivery of one copy of each chromosome to each daughter at cell division.) and ends that are capped with telomeres… think of them as the aglets on shoelaces). It was postulated that if two chromosomes had fused, evidence for such an event would be found in a chromosome with two centromeres and telomeres where they did not belong. That is exactly what was found in human chromosome 2 (chromosomes are numbered by length).

It was subsequently established that the equivalent chimpanzee chromosomes contain the same genes as human chromosome 2 and if placed end to end the positions of those genes match those of the human chromosome. The same chromosomes in all other ape species also line up in the same way…. the fusion event has been confirmed.

Recently we have obtained largely complete genomes of two other human species, those of Neanderthal and Denisovans. We see the same chromosome fusion in their genomes as well, which tells us that the fusion event took place in a common ancestor.

The greatest test of any scientific Theory is in its usefulness as a predictive tool. In this case, as in many others, the Theory of Evolution has delivered.
SW-User
@newjaninev2 no fiction at all, it was you, we debated and I debunked with evidence your theory on evolution and abiogenesis. You can pretend you forgot or ignorance all you want but you’re simply in denial.
SW-User
@ElwoodBlues Yeah Elwood, look it up yourself. I’m tired of repeating the same boring evidence. That’s been debunked, and it’s not too hard to find, go look it up yourself
Sharon · F
@SW-User What is @newjaninev2's theory and where did you debunk it? Simply claiming you have doesn't prove a thing, it just adds doubt to your claim.
@SW-User
Yeah Elwood, look it up yourself.
I looked. There is zero support for your claim. If you're not bearing false witness here, you can easily prove me wrong.
SW-User
@ElwoodBlues Nonsense. Look again. Your theory is totally debunked, and holds no water among professional biologists. You find the evidence yourself. I’ve proven this to newjaninev2 multiple times on this site alone… she remains in denial. I’m not repeating what you could easily find with a little integrity when looking. You can hide among deniers, but at this point the evidence is in.
SW-User
@ElwoodBlues False witness? Yeah, that’s your claim.
SW-User
@ElwoodBlues Evolution occurs within a species. It has never led to change creating any other species. Not once.
@SW-User You claimed:
we’ve gone over it in detail and your theory is completely debunked.
If that statement isn't false witness, you should be able to easily support it. Go ahead, prove me wrong!!
SW-User
@ElwoodBlues can’t you read? I’ve done it multiple times, and And I refuse to waste any more time with a denier and someone who can’t find easily the evidence fourth. You’re the one with the burden of proof and you haven’t come close.
@SW-User That's your thesis statement; next you need to supply some evidence to support it. Why don't you start with the last block I quoted from Janine, the part about humans having 23 chromosome pairs while other apes have 24. Why don't you start with evidence to refute that?
@SW-User
can’t you read? I’ve done it multiple times,
Yes, I can read. You make grand assertions and supply zero evidence. We are discussing a scientific question; assertions without evidence are useless. I eagerly await your evidence.
Tell you what, I'm going on a walk with my wife, so that'll give you plenty of time to gather your best evidence, whether links or whatever. Take your time, make your best case!!
This message was deleted by the author of the main post.
newjaninev2 · 56-60, F
@SW-User
I debunked with evidence your theory on evolution and abiogenesis

That never happened.

Let’s do it now... it should be a walk in the park for you, as you claim to have already done it.

Incidentally I don’t have a Theory on evolution or on abiogenesis.

There is a Theory of evolution by Natural Selection, and it has been developed from a tsunami of evidence.

Let’s discuss that

Additionally, I don’t know why tt=you keep referring to abiogenesis. Evolution and abiogenesis are two different topics, and I have never discussed abiogenesis with you, or anyone.
Sharon · F
@SW-User It's not our place to seek out evidence to support your claims, that's for you to do. Thus far you've been unable to.