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Who to believe, huh?
There appear to be five major categories regarding how to get to heaven in the world’s religions. Most believe that hard work and wisdom will lead to ultimate fulfillment, whether that is unity with god (Hinduism, Buddhism, and Baha’i) or freedom and independence (Scientology, Jainism). Others, like Unitarianism and Wicca, teach the afterlife is whatever you want it to be, and salvation is a non-issue because the sin nature doesn’t exist. A few believe either the afterlife doesn’t exist or it’s too unknowable to consider.
Derivatives of the worship of the Christian-Judeo God, generally hold that faith in God and/or Jesus and the accomplishment of various deeds, including baptism or door-to-door evangelism, will ensure the worshiper will go to heaven. However, only Christianity teaches that salvation is a free gift of God through faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:8–9), and no amount of work or effort is necessary or possible to get to heaven.
It really does not depend on what denomination or religion you follow. It's not what you're doing, that gets you into Heaven; it's where you're looking, and to [u]whom[/u]....not what method to attain heaven.
Isaiah 45:22, “Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.”
"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12)."
There appear to be five major categories regarding how to get to heaven in the world’s religions. Most believe that hard work and wisdom will lead to ultimate fulfillment, whether that is unity with god (Hinduism, Buddhism, and Baha’i) or freedom and independence (Scientology, Jainism). Others, like Unitarianism and Wicca, teach the afterlife is whatever you want it to be, and salvation is a non-issue because the sin nature doesn’t exist. A few believe either the afterlife doesn’t exist or it’s too unknowable to consider.
Derivatives of the worship of the Christian-Judeo God, generally hold that faith in God and/or Jesus and the accomplishment of various deeds, including baptism or door-to-door evangelism, will ensure the worshiper will go to heaven. However, only Christianity teaches that salvation is a free gift of God through faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:8–9), and no amount of work or effort is necessary or possible to get to heaven.
It really does not depend on what denomination or religion you follow. It's not what you're doing, that gets you into Heaven; it's where you're looking, and to [u]whom[/u]....not what method to attain heaven.
Isaiah 45:22, “Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.”
"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12)."
You're asking people who have not experienced Christ, so you're not going to get an accurate answer. God made it so we would, and could, know him. So we wouldn't have to guess about things pertaining to life.
He didn't leave us in the dark about who He is. That was the whole purpose of his coming to earth. Being born in the flesh, made it possible for us to relate to Him and He, to us. So we would know that since He was one of us, He intimately understands our feelings of sorrow, loneliness, despair, joy, all of our emotions; and therefore, our every need.
He didn't leave us in the dark about who He is. That was the whole purpose of his coming to earth. Being born in the flesh, made it possible for us to relate to Him and He, to us. So we would know that since He was one of us, He intimately understands our feelings of sorrow, loneliness, despair, joy, all of our emotions; and therefore, our every need.
Religion hasn't turned anyone's life around for the good, but a personal relationship with Jesus does. It's not about religion. Religion didn't die on the cross. Jesus did, and if you trust him as your Lord and Savior, he will give you a brand new life, like He has thousands, myself included. I have personally seen so many lives changed. Alcoholics freed from alcohol, suicidal people's lives changed to a happy life and fulfilled life. God saved my daughter from dying and healed her of anorexia. You can never go wrong accepting Jesus into your life.
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Maybe find a religion that isn't so destructive would be my advice. Pantheism is a good step from where you are. Maybe neo-pagan religions. Even Buddhism. But the Abrahamic ones have too much blood on their hands. Remember that religion doesn't really change people most of the time. People change religion to fit their personality. A peaceful person will have a religion of peace, a violent person will have a religion of violence.
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SW-User
@Emosaur [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8E-5p3DdUc]
SW-User
@Emosaur they don't believe in God ..they are bullshitting everobody and believe in their animal primitive instincts
TheWildEcho · 56-60, M
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CountScrofula · 41-45, M
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Tastyfrzz · 61-69, M
God and religion are two different things. I have yet to find a religion that shares my interpretation of God. The Creed's that I've seen are pretty outdated. On paper I'm a Lutheran but when they recite the Creed I can only say,"I believe in God."
Tastyfrzz · 61-69, M
Religion as I see it for now....
I am somewhat still at a stage of development where I am somewhat torn between the religion of my upbringing (Lutheran) and what I have discovered in my journey seaking the truth.
The works of Spong, Marcus Borg, Bart Eherman, and several others have me convinced that religion of the world are seriously flawed. I'm guessing that that came about through the temptations of power and greed. For example, the Apostles Creed is what really has be confused. Why would any organization desiring to remain in power still hand onto 5th century views of the world and ancient mythology. Biblical scholars agree that much of the new testament is midrash of the old testament and attempts to appease the Romans' whose state religion was Mithraism. The old testament was destroyed at one point and rewritten from memory--ever play telephone?. Genesis is a conglomeration of stories from several different time periods. Moses and David were likely nonexistent super-hero characters. Even the concept of the devil is a construct from anther religion (Zorastorism). The ties between Buddhism and Judaism has not been explored enough yet IMHO. The fact that there are only 7 pages of the teachings of Jesus and the rest is wild heroism, political subterfuge, and outright fiction bent on control of the masses really has me suprised that Christianity survived. Constantine and his wife are probably the only thing that kept it going. If US history had been recorded like the life of Jesus, people 1800 years in the future would think that George Washington was a great man who rode on a white horse, had wooden teeth, a big S on the front of his shirt, and had a side-kick named Robin!
Buddhism has many more teachings than Christianity but they are buried in tons of old writings inaccessible to us. Some of which are word for word of what Jesus was saying. I've read the Koran and the book of Mormon and find them both to be on the fringe. Ron Hubbard and Scientology are probably about as believable as the book of Mormon. I tried Unity but I've become tired of the continuous requests for Tithing by a fat rich gal with a southern accent; and while the meditation was relaxing the discussions of the metaphysical seem to be basically hogwash. The only reason I have not given up all faith is because of things that I have personally experienced. As a child living in the middle of nowhere I heard a child's voice telling me to look up at the praying hands. A shadow of a cloud had formed onto another cloud exactly in that form. My cousin and my parents were there and saw it too.
I have no answer for it. When going through my divorce 10 years ago I experienced a series of connected dreams that guided me even though the church would only have sermons on how it was a sin and they couldn't do anything for me.
In my search for a new church I had another series of dreams. I won't bore you with the details unless you want to hear them. So yes, I'm confused. I cannot go back to religion as it is but I don't know quite where to go.
One more experience I should also mention is that about 6 years ago, while waking up I experienced (that’s the only way I can say it) a voice saying, “Look to the Opposites, What you Seek is What you Find”. I even went to the Lutheran minister at my church and talked to them about it. I’m sure they thought I was nuts.
Recently though, on a lark I Googled “Opposites”. The results were quite interesting and seemed to be related to an advanced form of Zen. I also finally got the message of ‘Seek” and ‘Find”. So where the heck did all of this come from. I had never read anything on Buddhism (Zen or otherwise) up to that point. I’ve picked up a few books at Half-Priced-Books in December of ’07 (read 10 pages of one of them) and read a book on my nightstand in Singapore while I was there in November of ’07 but that is it. I’m not Buddhist or a promoter of it. I’m just confused.
To "Have a Nobel Mind" is a good goal but I cannot believe that there is not something more. As for the afterlife I cannot remember before I was born so I suspect it is similar. The affects of brain damage and dementia of people I've known also indicate to me that whatever is left of us after this life is probably not much that can be recognized. Are we just a collection of memories and emotional responses? Once they are gone, what is left other than the memories others have of us? Kristin’s out of body experience and Sandy’s discussions of other near death experiences with patients make’s me at least hope that in our mind’s last dying seconds it at least leaves us with the illusion of a better place.
The great wind after Dad’s death and the few seconds of complete understanding of the future just before the deer walked out in front of me on November 6th , 2010 really makes me believe that there is more than this life. The general truth that we exist and that everything must have originated from somewhere adds to that belief. While I don’t really believe that we are in God’s image, I do believe we are concentrated forms of its’ imagination.
Addendum 2012
Kristin Steinbach, a good friend of mine, had had an out of body experience 10 years ago following cardiac arrest due to anorexia.
It was obvious to me that she had found death to be not something to be scared of.
The morning of her death I sat with her at her house as she was on hospice care there.
They had brought in a bed and oxygen concentrator for her. Margo had taken her parents to church.
I think the kids were at hockey practice so we were alone.
She wanted to sit up on the edge of the bed so I helped her up. I sat next to her. She put her arm around me and leaned against me and said, "I don't want to die".
I told her that I wished that I could take her place.
She was crying. I remembered that she had had a near death experience 10 years ago where the emts had to jump her heart back again. She had the whole out of body experience she had told me.
So I said, "You've kind of done this before right?" She knodded. "It wasn't that bad, right?" She knodded again. We sat together for some time then she asked for her small blue pill. I got it for her and she laid back down. I sat across the room from her as she went to sleep. Her breathing quite irregular.
Her doctor had told her that if she bit the pill instead of swallowed it it might kill her due to it's strength so today I started wondering about that. About an hour later her parents and Margo came back and stayed with her the rest of the day. I came back over at 8:00. They had called the ambulance some time earlier as she was unresponsive to them and the kids did not want to have her die in the house. The EMTs could not find a pulse so took her out to the ambulance. I had a copy of the health care/DNR form with me but they insisted on intubating her as she had a faint heartbeat of 40 bpm. They told me to meet them at the ER at Methodist hospital. We took the family over there, the doctor let them say their goodbyes (she was quite brain dead by then). He switched off the breathing machine and her stats gradually went to zero. The kids stayed with her together and then individually for some time. Then we took them home.
It has been a difficult couple of weeks. I picked up the ashes for the funeral down here but it was the little bag of body art that I gave to her daughter that held more of her. While I am in a relationship with Margo I cannot help but feel like I had another family for a time. The oldest son is now in charge at the house. The grandparents have moved back to Fargo. I have a pretty big hole inside me.
Hi and thank you for sharing your experiences with me. I was very interested by what your 3 experiences. The first experience is very rare but I have read of something similar. It's interesting that you had no recollection of driving to the bar / bowling alley which was a mile south of where you were. Also interesting is the fact that you went to another entrance on Halloween and saw the bar that you had seen Kristin sitting in even though you had not previously known it had existed.
You're not nuts - many people have experiences where they meet deceased loved ones. It is common to see loved ones or as you mentioned smell their perfume. At first these may take people by surprise and even shock them. There is a lovely book about these kinds of experiences which may help you to make sense of what has happened to you. It is called Hello From Heaven by Bill and Judy Guggenheim. It describes what many other people have experienced and you may find that other people have reported similar experiences to yours. Maybe it's Kristin's way of reassuring you about something.
Many thanks for sharing your very important and interesting experiences with me.
Best wishes
Penny
From: "mtoffle@comcast.net"
To: drpennysartori@drpennysartori.com
Sent: Monday, 20 February 2012, 18:22
Subject: post death experiences
About a year ago I related the story of my friend Kristin's NDE pior to her actual death in October of 2010. Since then I have had 3 odd experiences that are beyond my explanation. Let me begin by saying that I'm an engineer and was raised as a Lutheran and I'm not much for ghost stories.
The first happened in January of 2011. I've only spoken of this two Kristins' daughter and a close friend but I want to know if this is common.
In this first experience I was driving back home from shopping. The store is only about a mile to the east of me and it was around 6 PM (dark here in MN but the street lights were on.) I was about 5 blocks from my house when I suddenly seemed to be standing outside of a room, looking through some doors. There were tables/booths along the right side and back and dark paneling with edging about halfway up. Chairs were to the left of the tables and about three booths in I saw two people at on of the table. The person closest to me was a man hunched over the table and to his left was Kristin. She gets up, gets that tight smile on her face that she would get when she was really happy and bounces over to me and gives me a hug. At that point I found myself parked a mile to the south of my place at a bowling alley/bar/restaurant that I've maybe been to about 5 times. I called Kristin's friend Wendy and told her about the experience and she said that Kristin had gone to that bar a couple times but said she didn't know what she was looking for there. 10 months later on the anniversary of Kristins' death I decided I didn't want to be at home on Halloween night as I was too upset so I went down to that restaurant but couldn't find a parking spot by the way I usually go in so I went around the building. There was a door close to where I parked that I'd not seen before so I went in through it and there was another small bar that I never knew existed in that building and it was exactly as I sketched it the night after I had the weird car experience.
The second experience happened a month later. I went on a cruise to the south Caribbean on Holland America. On the second night of the cruise we were at supper in the big dining room in the back. Two of our friends are quite well off so we were at a big round table on a raised floor. The seat to my left was empty.
The guy across from me was telling jokes and stories and while there was wine we had not had much and I felt something or sensed something to my left side. I looked and I swear she was sitting next to me. Her hair was perfect, she was looking across the table and smiling, she was wearing a silver dress with horizontally oriented white diamonds, the collar or lapels on her dress were noticeable. Someone asked me what was wrong as I must have had my mouth open. I turned to say something, when I turned back she was gone. I choked down tears and didn't say anything.
The third experience was in the spring of 2012. In the middle of the night I awoke from the strong smell of perfume. It was as if someone was right over my face. I looked around the room and house and the scent gradually disappeared. I smelled the bedding but there was no trace of it. It smelled very much like the perfume that she would wear.
OK, so am I nuts or is it all in my head or are these visitations??? Have you ever heard of similar stories???
Peace
Tastyfrzz
So what I believe is that we and everything around us is nothing but condensed energy. That is proven mathematically. In essence we are an illusion, a construct. What that energy is is hard to say. One might as well call it love. So we are a dream. All things are possible in a dream. Now, who is the dreamer? God.
I am somewhat still at a stage of development where I am somewhat torn between the religion of my upbringing (Lutheran) and what I have discovered in my journey seaking the truth.
The works of Spong, Marcus Borg, Bart Eherman, and several others have me convinced that religion of the world are seriously flawed. I'm guessing that that came about through the temptations of power and greed. For example, the Apostles Creed is what really has be confused. Why would any organization desiring to remain in power still hand onto 5th century views of the world and ancient mythology. Biblical scholars agree that much of the new testament is midrash of the old testament and attempts to appease the Romans' whose state religion was Mithraism. The old testament was destroyed at one point and rewritten from memory--ever play telephone?. Genesis is a conglomeration of stories from several different time periods. Moses and David were likely nonexistent super-hero characters. Even the concept of the devil is a construct from anther religion (Zorastorism). The ties between Buddhism and Judaism has not been explored enough yet IMHO. The fact that there are only 7 pages of the teachings of Jesus and the rest is wild heroism, political subterfuge, and outright fiction bent on control of the masses really has me suprised that Christianity survived. Constantine and his wife are probably the only thing that kept it going. If US history had been recorded like the life of Jesus, people 1800 years in the future would think that George Washington was a great man who rode on a white horse, had wooden teeth, a big S on the front of his shirt, and had a side-kick named Robin!
Buddhism has many more teachings than Christianity but they are buried in tons of old writings inaccessible to us. Some of which are word for word of what Jesus was saying. I've read the Koran and the book of Mormon and find them both to be on the fringe. Ron Hubbard and Scientology are probably about as believable as the book of Mormon. I tried Unity but I've become tired of the continuous requests for Tithing by a fat rich gal with a southern accent; and while the meditation was relaxing the discussions of the metaphysical seem to be basically hogwash. The only reason I have not given up all faith is because of things that I have personally experienced. As a child living in the middle of nowhere I heard a child's voice telling me to look up at the praying hands. A shadow of a cloud had formed onto another cloud exactly in that form. My cousin and my parents were there and saw it too.
I have no answer for it. When going through my divorce 10 years ago I experienced a series of connected dreams that guided me even though the church would only have sermons on how it was a sin and they couldn't do anything for me.
In my search for a new church I had another series of dreams. I won't bore you with the details unless you want to hear them. So yes, I'm confused. I cannot go back to religion as it is but I don't know quite where to go.
One more experience I should also mention is that about 6 years ago, while waking up I experienced (that’s the only way I can say it) a voice saying, “Look to the Opposites, What you Seek is What you Find”. I even went to the Lutheran minister at my church and talked to them about it. I’m sure they thought I was nuts.
Recently though, on a lark I Googled “Opposites”. The results were quite interesting and seemed to be related to an advanced form of Zen. I also finally got the message of ‘Seek” and ‘Find”. So where the heck did all of this come from. I had never read anything on Buddhism (Zen or otherwise) up to that point. I’ve picked up a few books at Half-Priced-Books in December of ’07 (read 10 pages of one of them) and read a book on my nightstand in Singapore while I was there in November of ’07 but that is it. I’m not Buddhist or a promoter of it. I’m just confused.
To "Have a Nobel Mind" is a good goal but I cannot believe that there is not something more. As for the afterlife I cannot remember before I was born so I suspect it is similar. The affects of brain damage and dementia of people I've known also indicate to me that whatever is left of us after this life is probably not much that can be recognized. Are we just a collection of memories and emotional responses? Once they are gone, what is left other than the memories others have of us? Kristin’s out of body experience and Sandy’s discussions of other near death experiences with patients make’s me at least hope that in our mind’s last dying seconds it at least leaves us with the illusion of a better place.
The great wind after Dad’s death and the few seconds of complete understanding of the future just before the deer walked out in front of me on November 6th , 2010 really makes me believe that there is more than this life. The general truth that we exist and that everything must have originated from somewhere adds to that belief. While I don’t really believe that we are in God’s image, I do believe we are concentrated forms of its’ imagination.
Addendum 2012
Kristin Steinbach, a good friend of mine, had had an out of body experience 10 years ago following cardiac arrest due to anorexia.
It was obvious to me that she had found death to be not something to be scared of.
The morning of her death I sat with her at her house as she was on hospice care there.
They had brought in a bed and oxygen concentrator for her. Margo had taken her parents to church.
I think the kids were at hockey practice so we were alone.
She wanted to sit up on the edge of the bed so I helped her up. I sat next to her. She put her arm around me and leaned against me and said, "I don't want to die".
I told her that I wished that I could take her place.
She was crying. I remembered that she had had a near death experience 10 years ago where the emts had to jump her heart back again. She had the whole out of body experience she had told me.
So I said, "You've kind of done this before right?" She knodded. "It wasn't that bad, right?" She knodded again. We sat together for some time then she asked for her small blue pill. I got it for her and she laid back down. I sat across the room from her as she went to sleep. Her breathing quite irregular.
Her doctor had told her that if she bit the pill instead of swallowed it it might kill her due to it's strength so today I started wondering about that. About an hour later her parents and Margo came back and stayed with her the rest of the day. I came back over at 8:00. They had called the ambulance some time earlier as she was unresponsive to them and the kids did not want to have her die in the house. The EMTs could not find a pulse so took her out to the ambulance. I had a copy of the health care/DNR form with me but they insisted on intubating her as she had a faint heartbeat of 40 bpm. They told me to meet them at the ER at Methodist hospital. We took the family over there, the doctor let them say their goodbyes (she was quite brain dead by then). He switched off the breathing machine and her stats gradually went to zero. The kids stayed with her together and then individually for some time. Then we took them home.
It has been a difficult couple of weeks. I picked up the ashes for the funeral down here but it was the little bag of body art that I gave to her daughter that held more of her. While I am in a relationship with Margo I cannot help but feel like I had another family for a time. The oldest son is now in charge at the house. The grandparents have moved back to Fargo. I have a pretty big hole inside me.
Hi and thank you for sharing your experiences with me. I was very interested by what your 3 experiences. The first experience is very rare but I have read of something similar. It's interesting that you had no recollection of driving to the bar / bowling alley which was a mile south of where you were. Also interesting is the fact that you went to another entrance on Halloween and saw the bar that you had seen Kristin sitting in even though you had not previously known it had existed.
You're not nuts - many people have experiences where they meet deceased loved ones. It is common to see loved ones or as you mentioned smell their perfume. At first these may take people by surprise and even shock them. There is a lovely book about these kinds of experiences which may help you to make sense of what has happened to you. It is called Hello From Heaven by Bill and Judy Guggenheim. It describes what many other people have experienced and you may find that other people have reported similar experiences to yours. Maybe it's Kristin's way of reassuring you about something.
Many thanks for sharing your very important and interesting experiences with me.
Best wishes
Penny
From: "mtoffle@comcast.net"
To: drpennysartori@drpennysartori.com
Sent: Monday, 20 February 2012, 18:22
Subject: post death experiences
About a year ago I related the story of my friend Kristin's NDE pior to her actual death in October of 2010. Since then I have had 3 odd experiences that are beyond my explanation. Let me begin by saying that I'm an engineer and was raised as a Lutheran and I'm not much for ghost stories.
The first happened in January of 2011. I've only spoken of this two Kristins' daughter and a close friend but I want to know if this is common.
In this first experience I was driving back home from shopping. The store is only about a mile to the east of me and it was around 6 PM (dark here in MN but the street lights were on.) I was about 5 blocks from my house when I suddenly seemed to be standing outside of a room, looking through some doors. There were tables/booths along the right side and back and dark paneling with edging about halfway up. Chairs were to the left of the tables and about three booths in I saw two people at on of the table. The person closest to me was a man hunched over the table and to his left was Kristin. She gets up, gets that tight smile on her face that she would get when she was really happy and bounces over to me and gives me a hug. At that point I found myself parked a mile to the south of my place at a bowling alley/bar/restaurant that I've maybe been to about 5 times. I called Kristin's friend Wendy and told her about the experience and she said that Kristin had gone to that bar a couple times but said she didn't know what she was looking for there. 10 months later on the anniversary of Kristins' death I decided I didn't want to be at home on Halloween night as I was too upset so I went down to that restaurant but couldn't find a parking spot by the way I usually go in so I went around the building. There was a door close to where I parked that I'd not seen before so I went in through it and there was another small bar that I never knew existed in that building and it was exactly as I sketched it the night after I had the weird car experience.
The second experience happened a month later. I went on a cruise to the south Caribbean on Holland America. On the second night of the cruise we were at supper in the big dining room in the back. Two of our friends are quite well off so we were at a big round table on a raised floor. The seat to my left was empty.
The guy across from me was telling jokes and stories and while there was wine we had not had much and I felt something or sensed something to my left side. I looked and I swear she was sitting next to me. Her hair was perfect, she was looking across the table and smiling, she was wearing a silver dress with horizontally oriented white diamonds, the collar or lapels on her dress were noticeable. Someone asked me what was wrong as I must have had my mouth open. I turned to say something, when I turned back she was gone. I choked down tears and didn't say anything.
The third experience was in the spring of 2012. In the middle of the night I awoke from the strong smell of perfume. It was as if someone was right over my face. I looked around the room and house and the scent gradually disappeared. I smelled the bedding but there was no trace of it. It smelled very much like the perfume that she would wear.
OK, so am I nuts or is it all in my head or are these visitations??? Have you ever heard of similar stories???
Peace
Tastyfrzz
So what I believe is that we and everything around us is nothing but condensed energy. That is proven mathematically. In essence we are an illusion, a construct. What that energy is is hard to say. One might as well call it love. So we are a dream. All things are possible in a dream. Now, who is the dreamer? God.
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Speedyman · 70-79, M
The reason to believe in God is that logic tells you he exists
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Carazaa · F
Yes! I love God! I was born again as a child and God helps me everyday! My faith gets stronger every day! You can read some of the miracles that he has done for me in my post on prayer!
GodSpeed63 · 61-69, M
Yes. I became a born again believer in Christ and His Spirit has made me forgiven of all my sin.
wilderflower · F
@GodSpeed63 Do you read and follow every word of the bible?
wilderflower · F
I can’t believe in something that doesn’t exist.
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