Why do you think god demands blood sacrifices and burnt offerings? [Spirituality & Religion]
Why does he want the blood splattered on the altar and the fat from around the organs and the large lobe of the liver and kidneys burnt?
This page is a permanent link to the reply below and its nested replies. See all post replies »
Carazaa · F
Because we are sinners, and it symbolized our sins. There has to be a blood sacrifize to[b] all [/b]sin, and the sacrifizes of the Jews were the symbols of Jesus the sacrafized lamb. Jesus died for our sins and was the ultimate blood sacrafize. Jesus is the life sustainer, that we can't live without, like the liver and kidneys you can't live without them.
1-25 of 37
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@Carazaa I've never quite understood this blanket guilt-trip! Yes, we are human, we make mistakes, sometimes we do someone wrong wilfully or accidentally; but few are so "sinful" they become criminals or leave a trail of misery in other ways!
So why the "we are sinners" as if we "are all sinners"? It seems a very bleak view of life, and turns believing in God from a comforting search for spiritual peace, into a hopeless quest to be a bigger bundle of creepy virtue than anyone else.
Further, why does there need to be a blood sacrifice to atone for sin? Since when has killing something or someone innocent, ever put right the real or imaginary "sin" of someone else?
I know that's the theological way to view the execution of Jesus, executed on the orders of authorities frightened he was encouraging an insurrection against Rome or (worse?) the established religious elders.
Otherwise killing an innocent victim - animal or person - cannot possibly correct "sin", however wrong that sin in reality! It is utterly cruel and pointless - but perhaps in ancient times it chimed with those who liked their gods to be, frankly, pretty nasty, unforgiving and heartless characters who despise humans.
Incidentally, I have read - and do not know if it's correct - that the Romans did not normally use crucifixion to execute the nationals of their colonies. I don't know what other ways they used though.
So why the "we are sinners" as if we "are all sinners"? It seems a very bleak view of life, and turns believing in God from a comforting search for spiritual peace, into a hopeless quest to be a bigger bundle of creepy virtue than anyone else.
Further, why does there need to be a blood sacrifice to atone for sin? Since when has killing something or someone innocent, ever put right the real or imaginary "sin" of someone else?
I know that's the theological way to view the execution of Jesus, executed on the orders of authorities frightened he was encouraging an insurrection against Rome or (worse?) the established religious elders.
Otherwise killing an innocent victim - animal or person - cannot possibly correct "sin", however wrong that sin in reality! It is utterly cruel and pointless - but perhaps in ancient times it chimed with those who liked their gods to be, frankly, pretty nasty, unforgiving and heartless characters who despise humans.
Incidentally, I have read - and do not know if it's correct - that the Romans did not normally use crucifixion to execute the nationals of their colonies. I don't know what other ways they used though.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@Carazaa
That's all of humanity written off by God then...?
Seems a rather vengeful God: created humanity, but made it weak and sinful then blames it for being weak and sinful. Whatever that "sin" might be that is so ghastly. That's not the understanding and forgiving deity I recall being taught about.
Obviously I am not saying, 'All right - let's abandon the Ten Commandments'. We should behave properly regardless of any religious beliefs, out of care and respect for others; but those two quotes are just so utterly bleak and death-worshipping. Anyway, we will all die eventually, so you could say "All life leads to death", however "sinful" or virtuous we may be. And then what? Quote 2 seems to say God sees us all as failures.
'
Returning to Pikachu's question...
Look beyond the Hebrew-based faiths and Pikachu's accusation apparently levelled against only them.
We still haven't explained the blood-lust inherent in ritual animal and human sacrifices. These were far more widespread than the society that invented the pre-Christian Judaism; and as I understand it, the Mosaic / Abrahamic religions reject them save only Christianity viewing the Crucifixion as a "sacrifice".
Beyond noting that humanity has a violent streak in it anyway, perhaps it can't be explained because the beliefs and origins of rites dating from "time immemorial" are of course, lost for ever.
'
I don't know how the Jews view Jesus (who of course was a Jew). I do know Islam respects him as a gifted teacher but fully human, because ascribing divine properties to him goes against their notion of an ineffable and unique God. I don't know both those faiths regard the crucifixion.
I am interested in why people believe as they do, but though from an informally Anglican background and having three friends who are all Anglican clerics, I think I am glad not to be religious.
That's all of humanity written off by God then...?
Seems a rather vengeful God: created humanity, but made it weak and sinful then blames it for being weak and sinful. Whatever that "sin" might be that is so ghastly. That's not the understanding and forgiving deity I recall being taught about.
Obviously I am not saying, 'All right - let's abandon the Ten Commandments'. We should behave properly regardless of any religious beliefs, out of care and respect for others; but those two quotes are just so utterly bleak and death-worshipping. Anyway, we will all die eventually, so you could say "All life leads to death", however "sinful" or virtuous we may be. And then what? Quote 2 seems to say God sees us all as failures.
'
Returning to Pikachu's question...
Look beyond the Hebrew-based faiths and Pikachu's accusation apparently levelled against only them.
We still haven't explained the blood-lust inherent in ritual animal and human sacrifices. These were far more widespread than the society that invented the pre-Christian Judaism; and as I understand it, the Mosaic / Abrahamic religions reject them save only Christianity viewing the Crucifixion as a "sacrifice".
Beyond noting that humanity has a violent streak in it anyway, perhaps it can't be explained because the beliefs and origins of rites dating from "time immemorial" are of course, lost for ever.
'
I don't know how the Jews view Jesus (who of course was a Jew). I do know Islam respects him as a gifted teacher but fully human, because ascribing divine properties to him goes against their notion of an ineffable and unique God. I don't know both those faiths regard the crucifixion.
I am interested in why people believe as they do, but though from an informally Anglican background and having three friends who are all Anglican clerics, I think I am glad not to be religious.
Carazaa · F
@ArishMell "God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son to die so that whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life" the Jewish lamb is a symbol of what's to come Jesus the sacrificial lamb. Sin requires a sacrifice of blood! The whole bible is a set up for God sacrificing himself because he loves us! We can't help ourselves! "How can you escape if you neglect such a great salvation" Jesus says. God is so merciful it's unbelievable, I am so grateful. And if we love him he hears our prayers and answers our prayers too miraculously!
Carazaa · F
@ArishMell Blondie ha ha 😌 ! Since God made man in his image we know when we have sinned and we know that sin requires a punishment. We all know that there is a God who requires us to be loving so all societies and tribes have rituals to sacrifice to God to appease him, because we know we fall short of his standards. God made us that way. We require a punishment for murderers in society foreinstance. But Almighty God requires our lives to be dedicated to Him and serving our neighbor. Especially after he gave His life for us, was tortured, and took the shame on his shoulders that belong to us.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@Carazaa Thank you for putting those two quotes in a better context.
Yes, of course it's right that criminals - murderers or not - are duly and justly punished; but whilst a religion like yours gives a theological background to society and behaviour, you do not need to be religious to know wrong from right, and to behave properly.
I still don't understand why killing something or someone should ever have been thought necessary to please [i]any [/i]god. You need consider that question beyond your own Christianity, which is only one of umpteen religions world-wide that have come and gone or still survive. Two wrongs do not make a right, especially if the second wrong is so blindly cruel.
It does matter whether it was a man like Jesus (executed for political reasons whatever the theological significance), some unfortunate girl in Aztec rites, or animals in many other ancient cultures. It was still gratuitous killing of an innocent creature for purely ritual reasons; and we still do not know why it was ever thought necessary.
Yes, of course it's right that criminals - murderers or not - are duly and justly punished; but whilst a religion like yours gives a theological background to society and behaviour, you do not need to be religious to know wrong from right, and to behave properly.
I still don't understand why killing something or someone should ever have been thought necessary to please [i]any [/i]god. You need consider that question beyond your own Christianity, which is only one of umpteen religions world-wide that have come and gone or still survive. Two wrongs do not make a right, especially if the second wrong is so blindly cruel.
It does matter whether it was a man like Jesus (executed for political reasons whatever the theological significance), some unfortunate girl in Aztec rites, or animals in many other ancient cultures. It was still gratuitous killing of an innocent creature for purely ritual reasons; and we still do not know why it was ever thought necessary.
Carazaa · F
@ArishMell Jesus was not just a man. He was God who became flesh to dwell among us, and humbled himself and was tortured for us. The physical torture was possibly not as humiliating as humbling himself and becoming the prostitute, the thief, the child molester, the rapist, your worst enemy, and gladly taking the blame they rightly deserve, and us too. It is fruitless to debate why? Why is there gravity and why do we have to die if we jump off a high building?
Carazaa · F
@Pikachu I am not sure we can know Gods reasons for all his laws, like the law of gravity. Why is there gravity? So we don't float around? Why does all sin require blood? Because blood sustains life and is precious, and sin is so terrible that it requires atonement? We are not required to know [i]why [/I ]to be obedient to God. "Why" is a rather rebellious question. If you own a company, your employees don't need to know why they need to report the hours before Thursday at 3 pm foreinstance to get paid on time. If they don't they simply wont get paid. Knowing why is not really important to have success in life. Being obedient to Gods laws is important. Or we don't get the rewards that God wants to give us.
When God told Noah to build a boat in the middle of the desert, He didn't hesitate. He simply did it and trusted that what God told him was true. That he would flood the world but save 8 people, only his family because of Noah's faith in God. People mocked him and called him crazy. Look at the Christians around the world. Even though we are mocked for being kind of looney, God provides for us better than the world around us. We aren't wealthy but God has promised that [b]"My own will never beg for bread" [/b]And often he pour down his blessings and overflows our barns.
When God told Noah to build a boat in the middle of the desert, He didn't hesitate. He simply did it and trusted that what God told him was true. That he would flood the world but save 8 people, only his family because of Noah's faith in God. People mocked him and called him crazy. Look at the Christians around the world. Even though we are mocked for being kind of looney, God provides for us better than the world around us. We aren't wealthy but God has promised that [b]"My own will never beg for bread" [/b]And often he pour down his blessings and overflows our barns.
@Carazaa
[quote]Knowing why is not really important to have success in life.[/quote]
I think that's where we disagree on a fundamental level. It's very important to me to know 'why' and that's why i can't just take things on faith.
I don't just do things because someone tells me to do them and in fact if they refuse to explain why something should be done in a certain why then i'm likely to do it they way i think is best. There's no faster way to get me to NOT do something than to give the reason "because i told you so" lol.
The god of the bible isn't excluded from this. If something doesn't make sense then i want to know the reason. If an apparently all powerful, all loving god demands that people take life to appease him....well i question that.🤷🏻
[quote]Knowing why is not really important to have success in life.[/quote]
I think that's where we disagree on a fundamental level. It's very important to me to know 'why' and that's why i can't just take things on faith.
I don't just do things because someone tells me to do them and in fact if they refuse to explain why something should be done in a certain why then i'm likely to do it they way i think is best. There's no faster way to get me to NOT do something than to give the reason "because i told you so" lol.
The god of the bible isn't excluded from this. If something doesn't make sense then i want to know the reason. If an apparently all powerful, all loving god demands that people take life to appease him....well i question that.🤷🏻
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@Carazaa Well, if there is a god and he is that one you call God, as you say in replying to Pikachu, we cannot know God's reasons in the sense of reading his mind.
We can assess reasons for natural phenomena like gravity by its part around the Universe; but the ultimate question, why have a Universe anyway, is unanswerable.
I don't believe gruesome sacrifices are in the Christian God's plan though because if they were, they would only exist in Christianity, which if anything rejects such rites yet still takes Jesus' death as a sacrifice.
We can assess reasons for natural phenomena like gravity by its part around the Universe; but the ultimate question, why have a Universe anyway, is unanswerable.
I don't believe gruesome sacrifices are in the Christian God's plan though because if they were, they would only exist in Christianity, which if anything rejects such rites yet still takes Jesus' death as a sacrifice.
Carazaa · F
@ArishMell God explains everything we need to know! He made the world "for his pleasure", He has punishments because he is just. He sent his son because He loves us. A little child can understand the important points he wants us to know. The more we know God the more we know how Holy he is and how sinful we are.
Carazaa · F
@Pikachu If you will question authority that much that you have to know why someone in authority is telling you to do something I have to wonder if you have had your trust violated, because parents love their kids and if a Dad says do this or do that its for the child's best interest. Not being obedient can cause a child's early death. God mentions this as the most important reason to honor parents. I personally know kids that died because they doubted that the parents knew best and did the opposite because they didn't want to be told what to do. It results in drug use, reckless driving, quitting school, pregnancy, and other numerous problems for that child. I personally had a very loving Dad and I never wanted to disappoint him, and it served me good. I knew he loved me and I trusted him completely. Like I trust God completely.
If He says it, I do it, even if I have no idea why he says it. But he rewards us when we do exactly as he says. He wont harm us ever. [b]"Do not lean on your own understanding, but in everything acknowledge God and he will direct your path"[/b]
This has to do with trust, and knowing that if we do it Gods way, He will reward us plenty. Now if someone asks me to do something against the Bible, then I wont do it. I'd rather suffer the consequences.
If He says it, I do it, even if I have no idea why he says it. But he rewards us when we do exactly as he says. He wont harm us ever. [b]"Do not lean on your own understanding, but in everything acknowledge God and he will direct your path"[/b]
This has to do with trust, and knowing that if we do it Gods way, He will reward us plenty. Now if someone asks me to do something against the Bible, then I wont do it. I'd rather suffer the consequences.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@Carazaa That's fine, but only if you believe in your god, and believe in your way.
You have to accept that religious [i]belief[/i] is no more than personal [i]faith[/i], "true" for the individual believer but not necessarily true for anyone of a different religion, or none.
I accept you see spiritual parallels between your trust in God and trust in love and care between people. However the latter is clear and obvious for real reasons between real people, not based on the supernatural. That Earth-bound love and care means everything to the believer, agnostic or atheist alike and has genuine social value; but the religious parallel is significant only to its own believer.
It is fairly easy for the non-believer to see objectively why religion has such a hold on so many people, because most religions known, dead or alive, work on a few common, simple themes no matter the nature of their deities and rites. Yet it seems the more fervently a religious belief is held the harder it becomes to understand and accept that others do not share those beliefs, and why they do not.
You have to accept that religious [i]belief[/i] is no more than personal [i]faith[/i], "true" for the individual believer but not necessarily true for anyone of a different religion, or none.
I accept you see spiritual parallels between your trust in God and trust in love and care between people. However the latter is clear and obvious for real reasons between real people, not based on the supernatural. That Earth-bound love and care means everything to the believer, agnostic or atheist alike and has genuine social value; but the religious parallel is significant only to its own believer.
It is fairly easy for the non-believer to see objectively why religion has such a hold on so many people, because most religions known, dead or alive, work on a few common, simple themes no matter the nature of their deities and rites. Yet it seems the more fervently a religious belief is held the harder it becomes to understand and accept that others do not share those beliefs, and why they do not.
@Carazaa
lol no, you keep going back to this well. Once again, my parents are great and my relationship with them is happy and healthy😆
[quote] do this or do that its for the child's best interest.[/quote]
And that was fine when i was a child. I did what i was told.
I'm not a child any more and if you would like to compare our relationship to god with that of a parent and child then i will insist that, that analogy be applied evenly to every part of the relationship, hell included.
[quote]This has to do with trust,[/quote]
Trust is earned. How can i trust in something for which i've never seen any evidence even of its existence? I can't. That's called faith. I don't have that.
lol no, you keep going back to this well. Once again, my parents are great and my relationship with them is happy and healthy😆
[quote] do this or do that its for the child's best interest.[/quote]
And that was fine when i was a child. I did what i was told.
I'm not a child any more and if you would like to compare our relationship to god with that of a parent and child then i will insist that, that analogy be applied evenly to every part of the relationship, hell included.
[quote]This has to do with trust,[/quote]
Trust is earned. How can i trust in something for which i've never seen any evidence even of its existence? I can't. That's called faith. I don't have that.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@Pikachu I'm afraid many deeply religious people in their own faiths - or indeed many devout atheists - find it hard to understand why others have different faiths, doubt or none.
I can't say this is so for anyone on this discussion, but think it often stems from experiencing only one version of one sect of one religion; so though deriving some psychological comfort from its essence, failing to see that essence was/is common to most known religions gone or surviving. Some of course are afraid not to follow them - for genuine reasons in some families or nations.
Perhaps too, this (and the lack of evidence you cite) is why all too often attempts to ask someone why they believe as they do merely gains one scriptural quote after another as supposed "proof". It only proves holding that belief, not the reason for it.
I can't say this is so for anyone on this discussion, but think it often stems from experiencing only one version of one sect of one religion; so though deriving some psychological comfort from its essence, failing to see that essence was/is common to most known religions gone or surviving. Some of course are afraid not to follow them - for genuine reasons in some families or nations.
Perhaps too, this (and the lack of evidence you cite) is why all too often attempts to ask someone why they believe as they do merely gains one scriptural quote after another as supposed "proof". It only proves holding that belief, not the reason for it.
@ArishMell
Yeah i think comfort is the driving force behind religion. The need to have answers for the unknown. Assurance that death is not the end and that you'll see your loved ones again.
And then of course people have personal experiences which prove to them that the god of their religion is real.
Yeah i think comfort is the driving force behind religion. The need to have answers for the unknown. Assurance that death is not the end and that you'll see your loved ones again.
And then of course people have personal experiences which prove to them that the god of their religion is real.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@Pikachu Yes - the motives I had in mind. religions were also invented to give mankind some sort of place in Nature, and to provide a framework for social cohesion and basic morality in ancient societies.
I define that morality as essentially, 'Though shalt not harm thy neighbour' - more or less summarising the Earthly ones of the Ten Commandments.
The corollary that you do not need believe in the supernatural to harm not thy neighbour, is often missed by those who claim moral superiority merely by being religious.
I define that morality as essentially, 'Though shalt not harm thy neighbour' - more or less summarising the Earthly ones of the Ten Commandments.
The corollary that you do not need believe in the supernatural to harm not thy neighbour, is often missed by those who claim moral superiority merely by being religious.
1-25 of 37