@Dianna I heard that unsubstantiated rumor. It is fiction. No such thing ever happened. If people had seen him around after the execution, don't you think the Romans and Jewish High Priests would have heard about it and gone after him? And, at the very least, a man who rose from the dead would have made it into historical accounts from the known historians and government people at the time. That account appears ONLY in religious texts written YEARS later.
@Dianna Any human being alive after an execution would make headlines all across the world. It would be a historic event. The Emporer in Rome would know about it and would have sent armies.
Rising from the dead didn't happen before Jesus. It hasn't happened since. And, in fact, it just didn't happen at all. It's merely part of the Christian Mythology. It makes for a great story, but you gotta be on drugs, crazy or stupid to actually believe that shit. Next, you'll be telling me Mohammed took a magic carpet ride from Jerusalem to Mecca and Moses parted the Red Sea.
@Gamalon OK, think about it. Someone is executed say last Friday. (probably in Texas because they execute more Death Row inmates than anyone else.) And here it is Monday or Tuesday and he is alive. EVERYBODY would know about it. The State of Texas would be after him to re-execute him. They'd send the Texas Rangers after him. The FBI and the US MArshall's Service would be alerted and be after him. He'd been No ! on the FBI Most Wanted List. CNN would have special News Editions about him broadcasted Live.
Scientists would want to study him. Religious leaders would want to see him to see what "eternal life" looked like. Journalists from all over the world would travel to Texas to report on this miracle man. The president would be tweeting about him. It would NOT go unnoticed except for a dozen of his closest associates as they claim Jesus's "resurrection" did. Truly miraculous things would NOT go unnoticed.
@quitwhendone I think your modern perspective argument is valid. We as a scientific, open minded society most likely WOULD have paid closer attention. And I cannot contest that idea. But what would you need to see to believe the gospel today based on events back then?
The reason why I ask is I’m a bible believing Christian and want to spread the reason for the hope that I have.
@Gamalon Much of the gospels were not written until 40, 50 100 years after the execution of Jesus. That says everything right there. Had Jesus risen from the dead, it would have been written about contemporaneously, by many, and in great detail. Same with Moses "parting" the Red Sea. The Egyptians would have written about it extensively. Same with Mohammed being "magically transported" from Jerusalem to Mecca. It's just common sense. Mythology is mythology.
There are zillions of examples of miracles in the mythologies of people and cultures who live on earth throughout history. Incas. Aztecs. Mayans, Norse, Egyptian, Roman, Greek, Persian...they all have mythologies ripe with miraculous events that have no proof and no basis in fact. It is a very common thing for humans to do. And it's been done many, many times, over and over and over again throughout history. Christian Mythology is no different than any other mythology.
Do you really believe Atlas held the world on his shoulders? Do you really believe Athena was born when Hephaistos split open Zeus' head with an ax and she stepped out? The Greeks sure believed it. Did they have proof? Of course not. It's fiction. But they sure believed it enough to build statues of them. We know now it was silly fiction. Egyptians now know Ra, the Sun God was fiction. But 3,000 years ago, it seemed real to them. One day, you'll realize Jesus's resurrection is the same. One day Muslims will understand Mohammed was never magically transported from Jerusalem to Mecca in the dark of night on a magic carpet. One day, people will accept facts as facts. And science has a well-accepted methodology for proving facts. If all this religious non-sense was factual, they wouldn't call it "faith." They'd call it "scientific fact."
Even my high school priests told me that Jesus' miracles were not proven and had to be accepted solely on "faith." The Pope will tell you the same. Even they understand that what they believe exists solely in their heads. It's [b][i]FAITH[/i][/b]...there is NOTHING factual about it.
You do have several points I would hope to discuss just a bit more. The first is about the writings: This is the archaeological evidence supporting the gospel. Not to minimize your claims, but the actual accounts of Rome are Far more scarce then the Bible itself. The Roman National record is is lacking according to your timeline POV, but we still believe the romans because of the archeology. According to Evidence that demands a verdict, there is no work of ancient literature more textually accurate than the Bible. It is the gold standard for judging the historicity of the past. I believe one historian said if we were to throw out the accuracy of the Bible we would have to abandon all of antiquity as well.
Image 1 a list of biblical records in accordance with modern records. If anything there is “too much” evidence and the “history” of Livy, and Plato is mythology.
The second is the POV of Jesus’s enemies. According to Secular writing from Josephus (who was not a Jesus Follower but a 1st Century Jewish Historian) as well as Pliny the Younger, Tacitus and others account for the fact that Jesus was crucified on Roman orders and his followers believed in his resurrection. The POV of the Pharisees was NOT IF Jesus Did miracles but rather HOW he did Miracles. That is a whole ‘another issue to settle if we see eye to Eye on the Power he had.
Lastly As you noted the Bible WAS written during the first century AD but our records keep from the 2nd. I believe that DUE to the large number of scrolls that we have as I included above that previous scrolls were written that were lost to wear and tear.
@Gamalon The information in your tables is patently inaccurate. I would have to do a bit of research to show you but one thing I can think of of the top of my head is Caesar's Gallic Wars. That was a text that was [b][i]written contemporaneously and published in Caesar's lifetime[/i][/b]. He had other writings that were published during his lifetime, as well.
@quitwhendone I was going more for the lack of copies in existence. It appears we are too far apart on this issue to reconcile at this time. I wish you well and look forward to reading your other chats on other topics.
@Gamalon Indeed. And I am going to bed at the moment anyway. (I hope I can fall asleep.) Have a great evening/morning/afternoon, depending on where you are. Hope to see you around.
@Gamalon Here is something else you should think about: The Gospels of Jesus' life claim that on one occasion he turned water into wine for the guests at a wedding to drink. (Correct me if I have the story wrong.) This is clearly a fictional story. How do I know? Because I know for a FACT that water is an inorganic molecule consisting of two hydrogen molecules and one oxygen molecule. Wine is an organic compound. The alcohol in wine is organic and thus contains carbon atoms. Water has NO carbon atoms. Therefore, water CANNOT be changed into wine. Quod erat demonstrandum.
@Dianna No one could have risen from the dead in the same populous community they lived in and have managed to escape sighting by all but his 12 closest associates. It is fiction.
@Dianna There are 7.2 billion humans in the world. Only 2.4 billion of them claim to be associated with Christianity. "Associated with" means practitioners, believers, and those that claim to be Christian in culture only. Most "Christians" are Christians in culture ONLY. They don't actually believe or practice the dogma.
If your God is so almighty and powerful, why did it take 1500 years for he/she/it to spread Christianity to the Americas? In fact, it took over 1500 years before any Christians even knew the Americas even existed. Why would your God hold Native Americans in the dark for over 1500 years? Why? Is he not all powerful? Is he not so compassionate that he would want people in the Americas to know about Jesus' "love" for them? Or is your God just a racist bastard?
Why is it that Christianity, to this day, has not spread to Asia (China, Japan, India, Indonesia and many other nations)? Why is it that Christianity is not taken Africa by storm? Does your God simply not care about those people? It is fiction. It is mythology. It has NO basis in fact.
