What do you think of the idea that christians who stopped believing were never really christians? [Spirituality & Religion]
By @Pikachu
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Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@EarthlingWise Do you really think it's a choice?
@Kwek00 when one is old and mature enough to make choices, yes.
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@EarthlingWise I don't see it... People argue that it's a choice a lot, but I really don't see the choice of it.
Isn't it more like a revelation on how the world works?
And once you understand that the world works a certain way, isn't it rational to act on this believe? Once you incorporate the idea that God excists, and that you need to believe in Christ for your eternal salvation. Once you grasp that, then there is really no choice unless you like the prospect of burning in hell.
Now you are going to have exceptions to this. But people that make an active choice of just becomming christians (or muslims or jew or hindu), aren't really believers to begin with?
Isn't it more like a revelation on how the world works?
And once you understand that the world works a certain way, isn't it rational to act on this believe? Once you incorporate the idea that God excists, and that you need to believe in Christ for your eternal salvation. Once you grasp that, then there is really no choice unless you like the prospect of burning in hell.
Now you are going to have exceptions to this. But people that make an active choice of just becomming christians (or muslims or jew or hindu), aren't really believers to begin with?
@Kwek00 it's not about understanding, though it's about feeling comfort in some representations, like the place of humans in the universe , the immortality of the human spirit, the principles of obedience and rewards,the roles of both genders,etc..
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@EarthlingWise That's your perception of religion. It's a way of understanding it. Those religious folks out there are really busy not to go to hell tough, for them this reality is a really real thing and therefore they have no choice unless they wanna be damned for all eternity.
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@peskyone That is again your perception on the matters. For the believer, this perception is totally diffrent.
It's already hard to have a conversation with someone who quite literally lives in a totally diffrent perception of reality. It's going to be even more difficult, if you start impossing your own perception of their reality as some sort of moral evaluation of their perception. Isn't it just better to find what is objectively wrong in their reasoning? Instead of making a moral evaluation from the start?
It's already hard to have a conversation with someone who quite literally lives in a totally diffrent perception of reality. It's going to be even more difficult, if you start impossing your own perception of their reality as some sort of moral evaluation of their perception. Isn't it just better to find what is objectively wrong in their reasoning? Instead of making a moral evaluation from the start?
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@EarthlingWise Well it's a complex problem that's for sure. I'm just saying that at the moment someone starts perceiving reality in a certain way, the rest flows rationaly from that perception. If your basic premisse is that God excists, that if you don't follow God and embrace this being as the true God that you'll burn for all eternity. Then rationally follows that eternity is really long time and that it's better to avoid that. And by avoiding this eternity of hell, you better start being devoted. But you need to accept the first premise first. This is ussually not a choice, it's more of a revelation in which you suddenly become aware that this thing is real and all the rest flows naturally from this perception.
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@EarthlingWise yeah, but if we are going to have a conversation about bullying (I mean we can do that) then I'll denounce it. But I fear this is a bit of the same tactic as just randomly saying: "it's all because of Obama". You kinda dodge the toppic you are talking about, and just start another one because Obama 🤷♂️
@Kwek00 it's not a 'rational' conclusion, it is at best coherent with the given premises, in a naive kind of way.
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@EarthlingWise Why would it not be "rational"? If it's "coherent" doesn't that mean it's rational? That once you accept the premise, the rest follows?
@Kwek00 but the premise is anything but rational.
peskyone · F
@Kwek00
[quote] Isn't it just better to find what is objectively wrong in their reasoning? Instead of making a moral evaluation from the start?[/quote]
Yes, it would be. Perhaps Christians could stop using inflammatory arguments?
[quote]Once you incorporate the idea that God excists, and that you need to believe in Christ for your eternal salvation. Once you grasp that, then there is really no choice [b]unless you like the prospect of burning in hell.[/b][/quote]
Notice I have used your words to justify your lack of logic/reasoning and proof of bulling.
[quote] Isn't it just better to find what is objectively wrong in their reasoning? Instead of making a moral evaluation from the start?[/quote]
Yes, it would be. Perhaps Christians could stop using inflammatory arguments?
[quote]Once you incorporate the idea that God excists, and that you need to believe in Christ for your eternal salvation. Once you grasp that, then there is really no choice [b]unless you like the prospect of burning in hell.[/b][/quote]
Notice I have used your words to justify your lack of logic/reasoning and proof of bulling.
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@EarthlingWise
[quote]the premise is anything but rational.[/quote]
Well, that's open for discussion. But as I pointed out, once you accept the premise the rest is still rational. I think it's a real misconception to think that people that embraced (for what ever reason) a certain premise, that these people are de facto "irrational". I hear this: "you are irrational" for something that people disagree with, way to often. Rationality only gives validity to the reasoning, it doesn't have to create an outcome that is objectively valid.
The premisses are way more important. Annyone can believe in something that for annyone else that has more knowledge about the particalair subject the first actor believes in sound totally ridiculous. But the first actor might not be aware of the ridiculous nature of his/her premise, they may not be aware of the arguments against it. That doesn't mean that the first actors reasoning is de facto "irrational". It's possible that this person is extremely rational but just not aware of the problems of his/her starting point of which he/she reasons.
What is irrational, if when you as an outsider can objectively prove the starting premis wrong. And you can actually debunk it in such a way that there is no reasonable argument to be made for it. That this person keeps clinging to his/her orriginal believe. Because in that situation the situation changes. It's problematic to think that everyone has perfect information, so you have to accept that people harbor believes here and there. Cause not everyone has the time to research every toppic. But when someone with more knowledge of a subject can point out that you are wrong with objective facts, and you are unable to reevalute your position, then you enter the world of irrationality. If you are totally oblivious to this knowledge, your are just guilty of not knowing something that someone else does
[quote]the premise is anything but rational.[/quote]
Well, that's open for discussion. But as I pointed out, once you accept the premise the rest is still rational. I think it's a real misconception to think that people that embraced (for what ever reason) a certain premise, that these people are de facto "irrational". I hear this: "you are irrational" for something that people disagree with, way to often. Rationality only gives validity to the reasoning, it doesn't have to create an outcome that is objectively valid.
The premisses are way more important. Annyone can believe in something that for annyone else that has more knowledge about the particalair subject the first actor believes in sound totally ridiculous. But the first actor might not be aware of the ridiculous nature of his/her premise, they may not be aware of the arguments against it. That doesn't mean that the first actors reasoning is de facto "irrational". It's possible that this person is extremely rational but just not aware of the problems of his/her starting point of which he/she reasons.
What is irrational, if when you as an outsider can objectively prove the starting premis wrong. And you can actually debunk it in such a way that there is no reasonable argument to be made for it. That this person keeps clinging to his/her orriginal believe. Because in that situation the situation changes. It's problematic to think that everyone has perfect information, so you have to accept that people harbor believes here and there. Cause not everyone has the time to research every toppic. But when someone with more knowledge of a subject can point out that you are wrong with objective facts, and you are unable to reevalute your position, then you enter the world of irrationality. If you are totally oblivious to this knowledge, your are just guilty of not knowing something that someone else does
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@peskyone
[quote]Yes, it would be. Perhaps Christians could stop using inflammatory arguments?[/quote]
I really don't like this "us" vs "them" dichotomy here. Because to be honest (jut look at the SW fora where people talk about religion) the inflammatory arguments come from both sides. It's really not just a thing of religious people.
I try not to do it, but sometimes it's really hard not to get into an inflammatory argument. What is perceived as being "inflammatory" is also something that can be discussed. But noticed that I disagree on certain toppics here, and I've not scolded at annyone yet.
[quote]Notice I have used your words to justify your lack of logic/reasoning and proof of bulling.[/quote]
If you want we can talk about bullying, but as I said, this will drive us away from the original toppic which was about making choices. Why not deepen out this toppic first before you just start talking about something else.
Since you don't know what my stance is on bullying when it comes to religions, I would also suggest to not just brand my ideas of lacking of logic/reasoning just yet. But you can do that if we ever deepen out this particulair toppic and you still think that I'm lacking of something.
[quote]Yes, it would be. Perhaps Christians could stop using inflammatory arguments?[/quote]
I really don't like this "us" vs "them" dichotomy here. Because to be honest (jut look at the SW fora where people talk about religion) the inflammatory arguments come from both sides. It's really not just a thing of religious people.
I try not to do it, but sometimes it's really hard not to get into an inflammatory argument. What is perceived as being "inflammatory" is also something that can be discussed. But noticed that I disagree on certain toppics here, and I've not scolded at annyone yet.
[quote]Notice I have used your words to justify your lack of logic/reasoning and proof of bulling.[/quote]
If you want we can talk about bullying, but as I said, this will drive us away from the original toppic which was about making choices. Why not deepen out this toppic first before you just start talking about something else.
Since you don't know what my stance is on bullying when it comes to religions, I would also suggest to not just brand my ideas of lacking of logic/reasoning just yet. But you can do that if we ever deepen out this particulair toppic and you still think that I'm lacking of something.
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@splishsplash You seem like a really rational person. Keep up the good work. 👍️
It would be nice if you pointed out the mentally handicapped stuff. I also don't call you a bitch instead when I can point out why I do so. BTW, if you can't point out the mentally handicapped stuff (because I honestly have no idea what you are talking about) then consider yourself to be a bitch for just calling me mentally handicaped out of pure ignorance.
It would be nice if you pointed out the mentally handicapped stuff. I also don't call you a bitch instead when I can point out why I do so. BTW, if you can't point out the mentally handicapped stuff (because I honestly have no idea what you are talking about) then consider yourself to be a bitch for just calling me mentally handicaped out of pure ignorance.
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@splishsplash You have no idea how stupid you are. 🤦♂️
@Kwek00
And you have no idea how mentally incapable - of formulating an original thought - you are.
But more importantly, you lack integrity, humility and an awareness of how your arrogance actually defeats your ability to attract mindless sheep.
We see you for who and what you are -- A meaningless, self serving, coward.
Move along now. You are officially boring me.
And you have no idea how mentally incapable - of formulating an original thought - you are.
But more importantly, you lack integrity, humility and an awareness of how your arrogance actually defeats your ability to attract mindless sheep.
We see you for who and what you are -- A meaningless, self serving, coward.
Move along now. You are officially boring me.
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@splishsplash How manny original thoughts do you believe that you have? Because that's like something that pops up a lot in conversation that throw the "mentally handicaped" idea around. For some reason they harbor this idea that they have a lot of original ideas... and once you start figuring it out, they are ussually nothing special. Because being original, is just really really really hard.
A coward that still defends his ideas without calling the person he talks with mentally handicaped from the ghet go tough. I have no problem calling someone an ignorant bitch if she behaves that way.
A coward that still defends his ideas without calling the person he talks with mentally handicaped from the ghet go tough. I have no problem calling someone an ignorant bitch if she behaves that way.
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