Nah, i'm pretty sure i am. I mean just the fact that i haven't murdered all the babies on the planet at once seems to put me a little ahead of the big G.
But based on what i shared there, which part seems to you to be a faulty reading?
SW-User
@Pikachu Big G doesn't murder babies, he executes divine judgment, which He has the authority to do, and... ahem... you don't. Sanctions slavery? Hardly. You should know the history of the whole Bible.. and what's in it... before you expose such ignorance.
lol he damn sure does murder them all. Call it what you want, he killed literally every human being on the planet except for noah and his family. That's genocide, bud! And having the authority to do it does not magically make it a moral act.
[quote]Sanctions slavery? Hardly[/quote]
Can you be more specific? Because i feel like you're about to trot out the "well slavery in the bible was more like indentured servitude" canard.
SW-User
@Pikachu Ignorant as ever you are. There was indentured servitude, true... but I'm not going there. The bottom line is that the Bible is the history of God's plan of redemption, working through ever since man's fall - I think you know that, you're just being dense about it. It doesn't justify slavery, slavery is part of the condition of sin - what it does is that up until the Resurrection the Lord works through man's condition, working out man's salvation. You have salvation for the next life - in this life - still living the human condition of sin.
Don't believe it? This is going to work out really badly for you. I'm not likely to remember you in eternity... but boy - you are gong to remember this conversation. How's that ass feeling... a bit fiery just yet?... LOL...
lol so spiteful. See if you can finish out this conversation with a little more civility.
Anyway, here's why i find that explanation inadequate. Right up front, god identifies for us several things which we must not do. You may remember the 10 commandments. While he finds time to prohibit lying and makes sure we know to keep the sabbath holy, somehow not owning your fellow man as property doesn't make it in there. Nor is it ever refuted in the NT. In fact jesus says slaves should be obedient to their masters and that masters should be kind to their slaves. Although whether that still only applies to Hebrews is unclear to me. Are we or are we not meant to look to the bible for lessons and teachings ostensibly handed down by god? That's right. And in that book, there are codified rules for owning another human being as property. It doesn't say this is bad. In fact if you listen to matt 5:18 you're not ever supposed to ignore it.
And remember, don't suppose that we're just accepting mass baby murder as morally acceptable just because god did it
SW-User
@Pikachu There is no mass baby murder in the Bible. The Bible is a force - against slavery. You're babbling on ignorantly on two totally false premises - the Bible doesn't approve slavery, nor does it condone mass murder. It does have Divine Justice -
Civility?... really? Why? - you're condemned. I'm not a particular good christian - but I'm not a bad one - and I'm calling you out for your ignorance and stupidity. And you babbled on some things about the Bible that are incorrect on- because you don't know the Bible, and you don't seem to understand that the best interpreter of the Bible is Holy Scriptures itself.
So no - no mass murder, no slavery. Some of the passages are not about indentured servitude, they are are employee relationship, even though the term used was slave. But those aren't slaves - and mistreating employees isn't condoned either. Matthews 5:18. Yeah - the whole Bible is true. What part of it don't you get? Still babbling about it supporting slavery??
You literally - got nothing - but the typical atheist misinterpretations. In your case it sounds deliberate. Sad for you.
It presents specific and numerous rules about slavery and never condemns it. That sounds like approval to me.
[quote]Some of the passages are not about indentured servitude, they are are employee relationship, even though the term used was slave.[/quote]
Now i'm a bit confused. It seemed to me that you were aware of the descriptions of slavery in the bible and many of them are certainly neither servants nor employee relationships. They're descriptions of how you can own a human, where you can get them from and what you can do to them.
[quote]nor does it condone mass murder. It does have Divine Justice[/quote]
Sure it does. God commits mass murder and orders it be committed. Calling it divine justice doesn't change the act. Perhaps you can make an argument for why you feel it does. Why is murdering a million babies a moral act if god does it? How is genocide committed by a man differ from genocide committed by god to the people murdered?
SW-User
No it doesn't. It doesn't approve it. You keep saying that and you're just as wrong. You're not making a logical argument because you keep babbling the same nonsense.
Mankind is sinful and deserves whatever punishment it gets, mostly self-inflicted. God says death is the reward for sin. He punishes specific nations during his time of interacting with Israel. Murder - by definition - is illegal killing - so there is no murder by God in the examples you purported to provide.
Your statement is incorrect. I'm certainly aware of the Bible's references to slavery - and I know when it is discussing slavery, which it never condones, and when it discussed household servants and or employees... which is the norm of the society in question. You seem confused. Slavery is not condoned.
[quote]You keep saying that and you're just as wrong[/quote]
And you keep repeating that the bible doesn't condone it but you offer no argument for why a detailed and extensive list of rules for slavery should not be considered tacit endorsement. Please do so now.
[quote]Slavery is not condoned.[/quote]
Sure it is. It tells the people where they should get their slaves from. What's that one in numbers? Kill all the boys and women who have known a man but keep all the little girls for yourself? That's expressly telling people to go out and murder and kidnap little girls for slaves. And elsewhere it even tells you how you can turn an indentured servant into your property by giving him a wife.
[quote]Murder - by definition - is illegal killing - so there is no murder by God in the examples you purported to provide. [/quote]
That's fine. I'm equally happy to call it slaughter or genocide. So would you like to make your argument for why mass slaughter of babies is morally correct if god does it? Or was your argument that it's moral because the one committing the mass baby slaughter said we deserved it?
SW-User
You can call it what you want - but that's just you. You're wrong, and have literally provided no reason to back up your non-argument. You call it such just makes you wrong.
Slavery is not condoned in the Bible. The rules are for either conquered peoples, - who by the way were not christians or jews, and for those who work for another. That's it. You're in denial so you keep repeating the same mistakes.
...bud? You're rebuttals have become simply "No yur wrong". I think you can do better.
[quote]You can call it what you want - but that's just you.[/quote]
No i think it's actually everyone, yourself included. Killing everyone on the planet IS genocide. No two ways about it. The only difference is that you call that act of genocide divine judgement. That's fine. Now you're being challenged to actually make an argument for why all that killing is morally correct on the basis that god did it. Let's hear it.
[quote]The rules are for either conquered peoples, - who by the way were not christians or jews,[/quote]
Yes...you're supposed to take your real slaves (as opposed to hebrew servants) from the nations around you. How is that an argument that they're not slaves or that the bible has not tacitly endorsed slavery by telling you exactly how you may practice it?
I'm going to be looking for a little bit more from you here than just "yur wrong". Impress me.
SW-User
I've pointed out what your interpretations are. You've provided literally nothing. Which is easy to understand - you can't rebut because you don't actually know, and I've explained it several times again. You literally explained the answer, at least part of it, in your second to last sentence - and then you claim it's something that is not.
Impress you? How? You don't know the topic, and you don't follow the rules of logic.
So.... following another Biblical principle... I'm done arguing with fools. You have your evidence. There are plenty of books that can explain far better than I. You clearly know enough to get to the right answer - instead you choose not to.
@SW-User You are such a fucking brainwashed fool idiot.
Psalm 137:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
8 O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.
9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
Numbers 31:
13And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.14And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle. 15And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? 16Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. 17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
@Pikachu Exactly, I do not know of many employers that buy and sell their employees if they are not to be slaves. LOL @SW-User is a completely brainwashed fool.
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
Yeah i was a little confused by the insistence that there was no endorsement of slavery of slavery when there are clearly explicit and harsh rules for owning slaves.
But try not to be so abusive in your language. No need to be rude when you have legitimate arguments on your side😉
@Pikachu I grew up in an abusive religious home under a nutcase mother, I had read the entire bible the first time by the time I was 10. People like @SW-User deserve no mercy and need their own holey buy bull hit against the side of their head. I have read it cover to cover at least 10 times in my 49 years of life. Religion is a scourge on our planet, people like him are a danger to humanity and must be treated as such.
@Pikachu It is time to take the kid gloves off when dealing with these nutcase extremists, Christopher Hitchens knew it, Stephen Fry and Richard Dawkins knows it. Believers are becoming increasingly violent and demanding our deaths in the 21st century of those of us that do not believe. We need to put them in their place, no more kumbaya pacifism.
I totally get that impulse. But i think you can be more effective by letting wads like him shoot their mouth off while you remain civil. Just makes them and their position look weak and childish while making yours look more reasonable by comparison. Just a suggestion. You do you!
