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Abrienda · 26-30, F
The last sentence you wrote is exactly the point and "unconditional" the key word. Christ does not forgive unconditionally. "Go...and sin no more" is a condition. If you ask forgiveness but plan to do it again or do it again because you didn't take your apology seriously then that is worse than the sin you falsely apologized for.
The Christianity we have now is the watery "feel god about yourself regardless" kind very far from the teachings of Christ. So no you must not forgive some unconditionally - the condition is not to repeat. If you repeat than it seems to me the original apology is made invalid.
Excellent post.
The Christianity we have now is the watery "feel god about yourself regardless" kind very far from the teachings of Christ. So no you must not forgive some unconditionally - the condition is not to repeat. If you repeat than it seems to me the original apology is made invalid.
Excellent post.
Abrienda · 26-30, F
Go and sin no more is a condition. In any event there is God's law and man's law....I am not Jesus Christ and it may even be blasphemous to claim I can forgive anyone the way only He can.
Boallods · 26-30, M
Where do you draw the conclusion that "go and sin no more" is the condition? Which Bible passages point to that?
Abrienda · 26-30, F
@Boallods Are you suggesting Christ's message is "Go and keep committing the sin you just asked Me for forgiveness?"
The conclusion I "draw" is from reading the Bible, specifically John 5; 1-15 and John 8; 3-11.
Here is the first - in caps:
The Healing at the Pool on the Sabbath
5 After this there was a feast of the Jews, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
2 Now there is in Jerusalem by the Sheep Gate a pool, in Aramaic1 called Bethesda,2 which has five roofed colonnades. 3 In these lay a multitude of invalids—blind, lame, and qparalyzed.3 5 One man was there who had been an invalid for thirty-eight years. 6 When Jesus saw him lying there and knew that he had already been there a long time, he said to him, “Do you want to be healed?” 7 The sick man answered him, “Sir, I have no one to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up, and while I am going another steps down before me.” 8 Jesus said to him, “Get up, take up your bed, and walk.” 9 And at once the man was healed, and he took up his bed and walked.
Now that day was the Sabbath. 10 So the Jews4 said to the man who had been healed, “It is the Sabbath, and tit is not lawful for you to take up your bed.” 11 But he answered them, “The man who healed me, that man said to me, ‘Take up your bed, and walk.’ ” 12 They asked him, “Who is the man who said to you, ‘Take up your bed and walk’?” 13 Now the man who had been healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had withdrawn, as there was a crowd in the place. 14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, “See, you are well! SIN NO MORE THAT NOTHING WORSE MAY HAPPEN TO YOU.” 15 The man went away and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had healed him.
The conclusion I "draw" is from reading the Bible, specifically John 5; 1-15 and John 8; 3-11.
Here is the first - in caps:
The Healing at the Pool on the Sabbath
5 After this there was a feast of the Jews, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
2 Now there is in Jerusalem by the Sheep Gate a pool, in Aramaic1 called Bethesda,2 which has five roofed colonnades. 3 In these lay a multitude of invalids—blind, lame, and qparalyzed.3 5 One man was there who had been an invalid for thirty-eight years. 6 When Jesus saw him lying there and knew that he had already been there a long time, he said to him, “Do you want to be healed?” 7 The sick man answered him, “Sir, I have no one to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up, and while I am going another steps down before me.” 8 Jesus said to him, “Get up, take up your bed, and walk.” 9 And at once the man was healed, and he took up his bed and walked.
Now that day was the Sabbath. 10 So the Jews4 said to the man who had been healed, “It is the Sabbath, and tit is not lawful for you to take up your bed.” 11 But he answered them, “The man who healed me, that man said to me, ‘Take up your bed, and walk.’ ” 12 They asked him, “Who is the man who said to you, ‘Take up your bed and walk’?” 13 Now the man who had been healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had withdrawn, as there was a crowd in the place. 14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, “See, you are well! SIN NO MORE THAT NOTHING WORSE MAY HAPPEN TO YOU.” 15 The man went away and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had healed him.
Boallods · 26-30, M
@Abrienda I agree wholly with you that Christ's message is to go and sin no more. But this is not what I question. What I do question is the claim that the condition for being forgiven is to cease sinning. Nowhere does the Bible say this.
Noone can cease sinning. Jesus does not want us to sin, but He knows that we can't stop no matter how hard we try. If not sinning would be the condition for forgiveness, then none would be forgiven. And if so - God forbid! - noone is saved, Jesus died for nothing.
Noone can cease sinning. Jesus does not want us to sin, but He knows that we can't stop no matter how hard we try. If not sinning would be the condition for forgiveness, then none would be forgiven. And if so - God forbid! - noone is saved, Jesus died for nothing.
Abrienda · 26-30, F
it IS a condition. If Christ TELLS YOU to not DO something do you take that as serious or not? Or can you just lie to God and nothing happens? Then what's the point of having any rules at all if there is no punishment for breaking them.
It could work if you don't believe in Hell, but I do. Or if you believe that all people go to be with Him regardless of what they do, that is a position I understand and respect but do not agree is the case. Why then have Christ as gatekeeper?
It could work if you don't believe in Hell, but I do. Or if you believe that all people go to be with Him regardless of what they do, that is a position I understand and respect but do not agree is the case. Why then have Christ as gatekeeper?
Boallods · 26-30, M
Do you sin?
Needless to ask, of course you do.
Do you know anyone who does not sin?
Of course you don't. Because such people don't exist. They never did.
You're telling me, then, that noone is forgiven, noone enters the Kingdom of God, noone's gonna enter Heaven.
Needless to ask, of course you do.
Do you know anyone who does not sin?
Of course you don't. Because such people don't exist. They never did.
You're telling me, then, that noone is forgiven, noone enters the Kingdom of God, noone's gonna enter Heaven.
Abrienda · 26-30, F
@Boallods Please only quote what I say not what you want me to say so you can make you own argument.
Your first 3 questions are so fatuous I won't bother responding to.
I think if I say I confess to the sin of rape or murder or whatever, yet keep doing it and in fact plan to do it even while confessing it or know it is wrong while I am still doing it then I will be punished.
You can forgive anything but that does not save you from punishment. Admitting sin is not the LAST step but the first...it is then by your works you know if you are truly sorry or not.
So tell me...would a Communist prison guard in the Soviet Union been "forgiven" if he confessed to causing the deaths of thousands of innocent people then showed up for work tomorrow as usual and continued his work as before?
Like before, it is fine for you to argue what you believe Christ and the Bible says about something but since I am not Christ nor one of the 12, so I must make do with what is actually WRITTEN in the Bible about these matters.
I refer you especially to Galatians 6:7 which is exactly what I am saying to you on the subject.
Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Psalms 145:20 - The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.
Matthew 25:46 - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Ezekiel 18:20 - The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Galatians 6:7 - Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
James 1:15 - Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Ezekiel 18:4 - Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
2 Corinthians 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.
Acts 3:19 - Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
1 John 3:4 - Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Your first 3 questions are so fatuous I won't bother responding to.
I think if I say I confess to the sin of rape or murder or whatever, yet keep doing it and in fact plan to do it even while confessing it or know it is wrong while I am still doing it then I will be punished.
You can forgive anything but that does not save you from punishment. Admitting sin is not the LAST step but the first...it is then by your works you know if you are truly sorry or not.
So tell me...would a Communist prison guard in the Soviet Union been "forgiven" if he confessed to causing the deaths of thousands of innocent people then showed up for work tomorrow as usual and continued his work as before?
Like before, it is fine for you to argue what you believe Christ and the Bible says about something but since I am not Christ nor one of the 12, so I must make do with what is actually WRITTEN in the Bible about these matters.
I refer you especially to Galatians 6:7 which is exactly what I am saying to you on the subject.
Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Psalms 145:20 - The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.
Matthew 25:46 - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Ezekiel 18:20 - The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Galatians 6:7 - Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
James 1:15 - Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Ezekiel 18:4 - Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
2 Corinthians 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.
Acts 3:19 - Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
1 John 3:4 - Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Boallods · 26-30, M
"Please only quote what I say not what you want me to say so you can make you own argument." - I'm sorry if I misinterpreted or misunderstood what you said. But I don't think I did misinterpret you. Is ceasing to sin a condition for being saved? I take you to say yes. Now, does a person - besides Jesus - exist, who does not sin? No, for 1 John 1:8 says: "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
Therefore, if not sinning is a condition for forgiveness, and if all people do sin, then none are saved. This is a simple syllogism, it's not quantum mechanics.
Maybe I misunderstood you with regards to the seriousness of sins. I'm not talking about killing thousands of people. In the example you used, sure, I agree with you, that prison guard couldn't've repented if he kept killing these people. Faith without works is dead. But not all sin is so great as killing thousands.
Looking at someone else's wife lustfully is a sin. Are you telling me that a young man struggling with sexual sin is condemned to hell because he lost control of his eyes for a second or two looking at some attractive young lady at the beach? The man knows it's sin, and hates the sin, yet his nature sometimes simply gets the better of him. He's sorry for the impure thoughts he's had, repents, and goes on. Are you telling me this [forgiveness] is only possible once? If it happens again, he's doomed to hell?
You seem to know the Bible well, so this disagreement of ours must be a fruit of a misunderstanding.
Therefore, if not sinning is a condition for forgiveness, and if all people do sin, then none are saved. This is a simple syllogism, it's not quantum mechanics.
Maybe I misunderstood you with regards to the seriousness of sins. I'm not talking about killing thousands of people. In the example you used, sure, I agree with you, that prison guard couldn't've repented if he kept killing these people. Faith without works is dead. But not all sin is so great as killing thousands.
Looking at someone else's wife lustfully is a sin. Are you telling me that a young man struggling with sexual sin is condemned to hell because he lost control of his eyes for a second or two looking at some attractive young lady at the beach? The man knows it's sin, and hates the sin, yet his nature sometimes simply gets the better of him. He's sorry for the impure thoughts he's had, repents, and goes on. Are you telling me this [forgiveness] is only possible once? If it happens again, he's doomed to hell?
You seem to know the Bible well, so this disagreement of ours must be a fruit of a misunderstanding.