A True Scientist [Spirituality & Religion]

@CopperCicada The reason why they're "at each other's throats" is because they're mutually exclusive. Creation and abiogenesis can't BOTH be true. We can't teach both of them in schools because only one can be true. Religion sees science as heresy for condemning its claims, and science sees religion as a disinformation campaign. As they both should.

@BlueMetalChick That's not my experience.

I know deeply religious scientists. They manage to be at peace. They manage to do science. They manage to practice their faith.

Maybe what is at play here isn't religion but fundamentalism. Fundamentalism is going to be at odds with science.

The problem is you yank this word fundamentalist out when I wonder if you know what is means. True Christianity is a religion based on thought and facts not upon blind faith. @CopperCicada

@CopperCicada You know scientists who accept the "theory" of creation? And believe that the Earth is six thousand years old and that life did not diversify through evolution? You know scientists who believe this shit?

@Speedyman @BlueMetalChick

Of course Christianity is a religion of reason. Reading the early Church fathers shows that.

What makes a fundamentalist is the insistence that all believers agree on all questions.

Some questions define one's profession of faith. It would be hard to be a Christian and not believe in God. Or that Christ was his Son. Or that the Son wad the Logos made flesh and that we are saved by his sacrifice.

It would also be hard to be a Christian and not accept certain moral behavior. Especially the Sermon on the Mount and the Sermon on the Plain.

But cosmogenesis?

I don't think that's so key.

In fact, most people, religious or not, don't even seem to think about it at all. We mostly live leaning into our plows.

So, sure. I know Christian scientists. Some believe in literal cosmogensis as presented in the Old Testament. Most believe the science of their profession and see the Biblical narrative of creation as either allegorical or beyond conception.

And that beyond conception sort of seems to be they key here.

For the fundamentalist nothing is beyond conception. Everything is very clearly understood.

So back to faith based on reason... the early Church fathers, especially the Desert Fathers, taught apophasis. That God is completely beyond our conceptions. Beyond all categories. Even "being" and "non-being". All of our concepts of God are really our own projections. God is beyond that.

And I think creation is the same way. From the vantage point of both faith and science.

@BlueMetalChick [quote]You know scientists who accept the "theory" of creation? And believe that the Earth is six thousand years old and that life did not diversify through evolution? You know scientists who believe this shit?[/quote]

Yeah, I know scientists who believe that creation isn't a theory but factual, And also know the the earth is just around 6 thousand years old, and that God created all manner of life that is good. You, however have not shown otherwise.

@GodSpeed63 I also know Christians who believe in creation and who understand the world and universe is as science shows us.

They are Christians because they are saved by Christ on the cross. Christ the Logos made flesh.

They believe science as they see the Biblical creation narrative as either allegorical or beyond conception.

If we don't accept such people as Christians then it is theories of rocks, monkeys, and star dust that make a Christian not grace.

@CopperCicada what I find hilarious is that BMC is the only one here who is actually an atheist

@SW-User I know. That's the adorable part.

[i]*cough* excuse me. that think about math, logic, and science... not really[/i]

[b]atheist![/b]

[i]actually not so much[/i]

@GodSpeed63 [quote]Yeah, I know scientists who believe that creation isn't a theory but factual.[/quote]
No you don't. You know liars who believe that creation is factual, and call themselves scientists. Conduct science. It will lead you to the conclusion that creationism is false, without any doubts about it, every single time, no matter how many times you do it. And remember what the definition of insanity is?

[quote]And also know the the earth is just around 6 thousand years old[/quote]
Except that it isn't, and science has proven so. No scientist believes the Earth is six thousand years old because you would need to ignore all of scientific discovery to believe that.

[quote]And that God created all manner of life that is good.[/quote]
No you don't. How did you prove that scientifically? What experiments did you run? What conclusions did you draw? Share the relevant data with me. I'm waiting.

[quote]You, however have not shown otherwise.[/quote]
Except that I have, and I do every single day. That's my job. I conduct science. You do not. I draw conclusions from evidence. You sit on your fat lazy fucking ass and make shit up, and then get angry and offended at people like me because we further human understanding of the world around us and that threatens the living hell out of you.

@BlueMetalChick [quote]No you don't. You know liars who believe that creation is factual,[/quote]

Are you just saying that off the top of your head without thinking or do you have evidence to show these scientists are lying? If you are going show evidence, make sure you know you're reading that evidence in truth.

@GodSpeed63 It isn't evidence of the scientists I need here. You're making a claim that you know credible scientists, who actually ARE scientists and not people who just call themselves that, who believe creation is factual. But when a person conducts science, they come to the conclusion that creation is false. So one of those things has to be a lie. Either the people you know believe in creation, but are not scientists, or the people you know are scientists, but they don't believe in creation.

@BlueMetalChick [quote]It isn't evidence of the scientists I need here. You're making a claim that you know credible scientists, who actually ARE scientists and not people who just call themselves that, who believe creation is factual. [/quote]

A real scientist knows creation is factual. I asked for evidence of why you think it's a lie. Where is it?

@GodSpeed63 So you get to define 'real scientist', do you?

@newjaninev2 [quote]So you get to define 'real scientist', do you?[/quote]

It's not me that defines a real scientist, I just recognize that one is a true scientist.

@GodSpeed63 [quote]It's not me that defines a real scientist, I just recognize that one is a true scientist.[/quote]
No you don't. A scientists is a person who conducts science. You don't conduct science, you stand in the way of science. So therefore you are not allowed to define other people as "true scientists." You get to sit down and shut the fuck up while the grownups do the real work.

@GodSpeed63 [quote]A real scientist knows creation is factual.[/quote]
But science has proven creation to be false. So you're telling me a scientists is a person who IGNORES science?

[quote] I asked for evidence of why you think it's a lie. Where is it?[/quote]
I sent eleven paragraphs to you explaining that, are you fucking kidding me?! You just ignored all of that? Why did I take the time to type that much?

@GodSpeed63 [quote]I just recognize that one is a true scientist[/quote]

And that recognition is based on... [i]your[/i] definition?

@BlueMetalChick [quote]But science has proven creation to be false.[/quote]

In what way? You've sent me paragraphs but they all testified to Designer. Not one of them gave proof to evolution.

@GodSpeed63 Now you're talking about evolution? We were talking about creationism, not biodiversity. You're changing subjects like a chameleon changes its skin color. Pick one.

@GodSpeed63 You might try:

Number of published peer-reviews publications

Number of citations of said published peer-reviews publications

Or do you think science is swanning around in a white lab coat? (actually, mine are tailored, and have my name monogrammed onto them... oh, oh, I must be a true scientist!!)

@GodSpeed63 [quote]Not one of them gave proof to evolution[/quote]

Would you like some evidence for evolution? I'd be happy to oblige you

@newjaninev2 First he says scientists "know" creation to be true, then when he's told that science has proven creationism false, he starts going after evolution.

This is shit you learn in 5th grade.

@BlueMetalChick The funny part is that the personal beliefs (or lack thereof) of any scientist are completely irrelevant.

@BlueMetalChick [quote]This is shit you learn in 5th grade.[/quote]

You're right about that. Evolution is crap that they teach in fifth grade. it shouldn't be taught at all. It's not true science.