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SW-User
I've never understood why so many religious people are so stubbornly opposed to science. I've always viewed science as an exploration of "How?" and religion as an exploration of "Why?" As far as the video, there's still an assumption here that there's some sort of engineering and design to all of this, and there's just simply no tangible proof of it. At the end of the day, it still requires a leap of faith that the universe isn't just the result of countless moments of random happenstance beyond our comprehension.
I’m not trying to be rude, honest, but I saw this poster that describes how born again believers view this.
@SW-User
SW-User
@BlueMetalChick We're in agreement. When scientists can drill an ice core in Antarctica and count 2.7 million years worth of layer building through repetitive annual cycles of thawing/freezing, a rebuttal of "but the Bible says the Earth is only 6000 years old" is nonsensical.
@SW-User It's as sensible as quoting a copy of the National Inquirer.
SW-User
@LadyGrace I'm agnostic not atheist, so I don't argue the existence of a higher power. I just think it's unproven and unknowable, and science explains "how" and "when", which is different than "why". When it comes to the origins of the universe, "why" is unknowable and unprovable, and it requires a leap of faith to land on the assumption that there's a higher power orchestrating it all. If God could actually be scientifically proven, it would no longer be in the realm of religion and would no longer require faith and belief.
@SW-User Well that's just the problem. Science can't answer what happens after death, but neither can anything else. What point is there to speculate on something we have no way of gaining knowledge of?
SW-User
@BlueMetalChick I think you and I are simpatico here. I believe in life before death. Whatever happens after that is not something I want to waste time fretting over, because as you've said, we have zero chance of obtaining that answer.
Why do we need science to prove God exists. His fingerprints are all over the place. It’s very evident. You’re a miracle. So nothing so intricately made your eyes and all the blood vessels, and the ability to see, etc? Even science could not pull that one off with just the “Big Bang”. That’s like a tornado hitting a huge semi, scattering all the pieces, and then them naturally all floating through the air and landing every piece, in one place to make it a whole truck again, with all the parts precisely in place and working. It just won’t happen.
You said: “If God could actually be scientifically proven....” Science is not the last word on the existence of God. We don’t need it’s determination to the existence of God. God proved Himself to man, when He resurrected from the grave without science. Over 500 people witnessed it. They were not all delusional.
I’ve yet to see a monkey evolve into a man, as claimed. Just because you can’t see God, doesn’t mean He doesn’t exist. It just means there’s evidence of a lack of understanding. I can’t see the Holy Spirit, yet I know, and thousands of other believers know, He exists, because we have the evidence of Him in our spirit. That’s not guessing. The truth is the truth, even if no one believes it, and a lie is a lie, even if everyone believes it.
To have objective moral values, you must have God, who provided us with a conscience. That comes from a moral Creator. Without them, there would only be indifference. @SW-User
@LadyGrace [quote]Why do we need science to prove God exists.[/quote] You clearly don't need science to prove it. You're taking a leap of faith based on belief and not ironclad irrefutable proof, because if that proof existed, it would no longer require faith. I don't need science to prove God just like I don't need science to prove sentient life on other planets. My position is that both remain unknown until actually proven.
[quote]His fingerprints are all over everything. It's evident.[/quote]
It's not evident. There is literally no evidence beyond the words and stories passed down through the generations. That's not proof. That's hearsay.
[quote] Over 500 people witnessed it. They were not delusional. [/quote] Groupthink and delusion is quite possible even with large numbers. 909 people died in Jonestown, because hundreds of those people subscribed to groupthink and believed Jim Jones to be something he wasn't.
[quote] To have objective moral values, you must have God [/quote]
I reject this outright. I don't believe that cosmic justice and retribution in the afterlife has to be lorded over someone in order for them to know how to treat others, feel empathy, and act with kindness.
In closing, I have to emphasize that I'm agnostic and not atheist. Far be it from me to tell you or anyone else what to believe, how to structure your life, or how to find meaning within it.
@SW-User [quote]It's not evident. There is literally no evidence beyond the words and stories passed down through the generations. That's not proof. That's hearsay.[/quote]
It's not hearsay, it's the Word of God (Holy Bible). The Word of God is not a religious book but man's history and instruction manual for man to live according to how God created Him to live. We call the Holy Bible the Word of God because God wrote it, not man.
[quote]Groupthink and delusion is quite possible even with large numbers. 909 people died in Jonestown, because hundreds of those people subscribed to groupthink and believed Jim Jones to be something he wasn't. [/quote]
Those 500 people witnessed what they saw; you're talking about people who died believing a lie. There's a difference.
[quote]I reject this outright. I don't believe that cosmic justice and retribution in the afterlife has to be lorded over someone in order for them to know how to treat others, feel empathy, and act with kindness. [/quote]
Where, do you think, our laws and morals come from?
@GodSpeed63 [quote]It's not hearsay, it's the Word of God (Holy Bible). The Word of God is not a religious book but man's history and instruction manual for man to live according to how God created Him to live. We call the Holy Bible the Word of God because God wrote it, not man.[/quote] "It's the word of god" is the cheapest and most worthless statement that you could ever make. There's zero evidence or credibility to it being the "word of god." It's only the word of god because you triumphantly say so. And you only think it's the word of god because mommy and daddy told you so.
This reminds me of something we used to do when I was in grade school. Me and all my friends would invent our own superheroes, and we would play make believe, and pretend to be the superheroes we had invented. Each person had selected a set of superpowers for their hero, and each person also proclaimed that their character was stronger and better than everyone else's. No matter what one person said, the other person would insist that their superhero was more powerful. Because it had no bearing on reality. These people didn't really exist; their abilities were fictitious and couldn't be tested to see which was really more powerful than the other. So the only thing you needed to do was just say so.
That's exactly what it's like with the "word of god." Every fucking religious text ever written claims to be the word of god. The Muslims claim the Quran is the word of god, and they say the bible is a pile of shit and that the Christian god is a false idol. The Jews say the same about the Muslims. The Hindus read the Vedas and insist it's the words of their multitude of gods.
And yet none of it means anything. There's no definitive answer because nobody has any idea of who god is, what he wants, or if he's even real. They just say their book is right and it's the word of god, and that everyone else's is wrong, just like my friends making up superheroes and saying that theirs was the strongest.
Science is ever changing. God never changes. Science/Scientists have their place, but realize that when we start asking historical questions about things that happened in the past, we have to look to history for an answer. There is historical evidence that Jesus was whom he said he was, with plenty of witnesses. Archeological findings, as well.
The Bible also answers our historical questions. The Bible gives a framework for understanding the world unlike any other book. It explains why the universe seems so intentionally designed and beautiful in some ways, but full of suffering and death at the same time. It helps us understand what happens at death, what is beyond, and where we’ll spend eternity. It explains that our spirit never dies. It tells us that one day there will be no more death. It helps us understand why we have an inbuilt conscience that condemns our sin (Christianity doesn’t create guilt, it explains our guilt and gives us a way to be free from it), and points us to the Saviour, Jesus Christ.
Man could debate this until the earth is no more, but if one does not want to believe, no amount of proof or evidence will be sufficient. The same reason a thief cannot find a cop. He’s not looking. He doesn’t want to know the truth, that he is flawed and guilty because of his own actions. He doesn’t want to face the responsibility of his choices or actions, but he does have the sense to hide, because he knows that one day, whether he likes or agrees with it, or even believes it or not, he will eventually...and definitely... have to face the Judge. No matter how many times he denies that fact, that will never change the course of events that must take place. The man’s sin will find him out.
We’re ALL missing the point here. What difference does debates make, if we miss the most important decision of all time...of our life...the choice of where we’ll spend eternity? That’s certainly something [b]far[/b] too important to risk, leave to chance, or sluff off. What will it profit a man, if he gains the whole world, yet loses his own soul? Eternity is an awfully long time to get it wrong. This is your future we’re talking about. A far longer journey, than this short time here. There’s no comparison.
While Satan so cunningly, has us all focusing on debating different opinions, we’ve both neglected and allowed him to direct our focus away from the most important issue of all. Mankind’s condition! Bottom line: There are three things that all denominations hold as truth:
(1) We’re all in the same boat. We are all sinners. (2) Humanity is separated from God, because of our sinful nature. (3) Humanity needs to be reconciled with God. The differences come in how that reconciliation is acquired.
Many denominations focus on rules and rituals. When those rules are followed or those rituals are performed, the person is attempting to be made right with God, or gain His favor. For example, in Islam there are five pillars that one must do, in order to show surrender or submission to God. Other religions focus more on observing rituals, rather than following rules. After those rituals are performed, it is taught that God will accept the person who performed them, yet no one can tell you how long that will be, when asked, so one is always in a continual state to earn God’s favor, which is an insecure way to live, whereas with grace, one already has God’s favor.
The determining factor of one's authentic faith relationship with God is not one's denomination, religious practice or performance in Christian disciplines, but rather the presence of the indwelling Spirit of Christ, upon confession of faith. As it is written, “if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. (Rom.8:9) Jesus accepts us just as we are. He offers salvation to all, that they may accept His invitation to receive forgiveness, and be welcomed into his family, and live eternally in heaven. That’s up to the individual choice, but keep in mind that your choice determines where you’ll spend eternity. Contrary to belief, that’s not a threat. Salvation is free to us, however Jesus paid a very heavy price for it...with His life, so you and I could spend eternity in heaven. Or would we rather the alternative? We should be extremely grateful for His great sacrifice.
You might say to me, “You’re completely wrong and crazy!” If I am, I haven’t lost a thing. I’ll never be sorry I’ve served Him for the last 45 years, and I’d do it all over again, because He is worth it, He deserves it, and because of what I know in my heart from experiencing the Holy Spirit. He transformed my life the day I accepted Jesus as my Savior. He has never let me down. He saved my life, and those proofs given to me of God’s existence, no person on earth can take away, no matter what they believe. That’s not arrogance. It’s assurance. God is no liar. He is a Promise Keeper. The Holy Spirit that lives inside me...proof. I don’t have to guess if God is real. He lives in my heart. I don’t need anyone’s approval on that. What others choose to believe, I respect. I’m just sharing.
@LadyGrace God may not change, but peoples' way of worshipping him does. A Christian of 2000 years ago would find modern worship services unrecognizeable. So religion changes just as much as science does, although for different reasons.
Yet, we don’t even need science to prove there is a God.
Can you predict the future with 100% accuracy? I only know one person who can do that. God.
The testimony of the Scriptures is that the purpose of prophecy is to let us know that God exists and that He has a plan for this world. By the foretelling of persons, places, and events hundreds of years before their occurrence, the Bible demonstrates a knowledge of the future that is too specific to be labeled a good guess. By giving examples of fulfilled prophecy, the Scriptures give a strong testimony to their own inspiration. The Bible is literally “God-breathed”. (2 Timothy 3:16) The Greek word, “theopneustos”, means “God-breathed”, inspired by God. This is the only use of this word in the Bible, to describe its inspiration of God.
An example of this would be the prophecy of King Cyrus (Isaiah 44:28; 45:1). The prophet Isaiah, writing about 700 b.c., predicts Cyrus by name as the king who will say to Jerusalem that it shall be built and that the temple foundation shall be laid.
At the time of Isaiah’s writing, the city of Jerusalem was fully built and the entire temple was standing. Not until more than 100 years later would the city and temple be destroyed by King Nebuchadnezzar in 586 b.c.
After Jerusalem was taken by the Babylonians, it was conquered by the Persians in about 539 b.c. Shortly after that, a Persian king named Cyrus gave the decree to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem. This was around 160 years after the prophecy of Isaiah!
Thus Isaiah predicted that a man named Cyrus, who would not be born for about 100 years, would give the command to rebuild the temple which was still standing in Isaiah’s day and would not be destroyed for more than 100 years. This prophecy is truly amazing, but it is not isolated.
There are, in fact, literally hundreds of prophecies which predict future events. The idea that the fulfillment of the predictions is a result of coincidence or chance, is absurd, in light of the evidence. God has given sufficient evidence of His existence and of the divine inspiration of the Scriptures by means of fulfilled prophecy.
@SW-User Actually there is tremendous evidence of engineering in life. It is simply too complex for most people to understand so they just pass it off as being 'natural'. Never realizing there is nothing natural about the natural.
@BlueMetalChick Just look in the mirror and at everyone you see. Then look in His Word about Him making the heavens and the earth. His Word is truth and His work is visible to us.
