Women arguing against the decision by FINA to disallow transgender women from competing at the olympic games as 'women' because it's 'unscientific'

@SW-User There is of course and they are beautiful but still not 100% a woman and in most cases are much stronger than an average woman so this is where the line is drawn.

@PiecingBabyFaceTogether In what way can a biological male ever be a woman? They can pretend. We can pretend. But they will never, ever be a woman.

A trans biological male can want to look like a woman, can prefer being called a she - and still not engage in the nonsense that they're a biological female

Their identity is no less, it is equally valid, but it is not the identity of a woman

@SW-User That's not the argument here I don't know what to tell you. However yes I just said that they are not going to be women ever, only from the outside, they will never be able to get pregnant or have periods even after sex change surgery.
In other words I respect them but I am against them competing against real women because it's simply not fair and very dangerous and will cause deaths.

@SW-User you're thinking of crossdressers, not transgender women. 🙄

@NerdyPotato men aren't and never will be women

I'm thinking about men. If you choose to call some men women.- despite the biological reality - that's on you

Please don't expect me or anybody else to indulge the fantasy

@SW-User what reality would that be? Sex organs that can be changed surgically? Chromosomes that aren't binary? Hormones that don't divide us into two groups by nature? 🤔

@SW-User They're not going to give in. They do not understand how biology works at all

@JestAJester and neither do most people with a strong opinion on this topic, judging by the replies to this thread...

@NerdyPotato why are you determined to argue women's sports shouldn't exists.

We all know what a woman is. If you don't know then why are you arguing this? Shouldn't you be educating yourself?

@SW-User because it doesn't make sense. Whether you're a man or woman isn't the only factor in how good you are at sports and whether it's fair to compete with others. Some men have a major advantage over other men and some women have a major advantage over other women. Dividing competition on that alone doesn't take advantages out of the equation.

@NerdyPotato I think you're struggling with the concept of elite and competitive sports

There are peopke who make a living being professional athletes. They are idolised for being the best that they can be within biological and age categories.

An athlete who wins gold brings a lot of pride to her country. Out of all the females who have competed she has pushed her biology to the furthest lengths that it can be pushed. Other women admire her dedication, natural ability and sacrifices she taken to make it happen

Likewise a 15 year old athlete wins a school run and it brings her immense pride as well as peer approval. She is the best 15 year old female runner at her school.

Now if 35 year old Bob who sits on his couch most of the day decides to arm wrestle this girl he will win. Is there any achievement in Bob beating a 15 year old girl?

@SW-User I understand all of this very well and your example Bob and the school girl is exactly why I'm in favor of creating leagues based on muscle mass, strength, endurance, etc. Bob should obviously be in a different arm wrestling league for having much stronger arms. I just don't understand why he should be in a different league for having a penis.

And another thing that baffles me is why transgender people pushing themselves to their limits deserves less pride and praise than cis men and women doing so.

@NerdyPotato Because a biological male does not have to push himself to his limits to beat women

@SW-User that depends on a lot more than just a Y chromosome and transitioning comes with obvious effects. A transgender woman may not be entirely female according to every definition, but is certainly not 100% male anymore either.

@NerdyPotato they are 100% a male

200, 000 years in the future an archeologist will be able to identify him as a male

Taking female hormones will give him the experience of a male on female hormones

Or put it this way - when Oscar Wilde was given hormones against his will - did he become less of a man?

If the result changes based on the way we feel about it - it isn't scientifically based

If we can't turn an unwilling man into a 'sort of woman' we can't do it for trans either.

@SW-User archeologists only determine the sex of skeletons, not people. But I feel like we're running is circles. If it's still not clear there is a lot more to the functioning of a human body than DNA, looks and bone structure, I don't think you'll ever come to that realization.

@NerdyPotato Yes, I do not believe someone thinking they're a duck, makes them a duck and gives them webbed feet. And I never will.

@NerdyPotato Just as a side note I want to point out that a trans person needing to believe they are actually the opposite sex - is extremely recent

Many trans people are perfectly fine with their identities.

@SW-User that's a good development, and the duck comparison is a good one. Just saying you're a duck doesn't make you one and even surgery can't turn a human into a natural duck. But turning your stomach skin into some webs for between your toes, can make you look more duck-like and less human-like, improve your ability to swim and reduced your chances to win a marathon.

It does indeed not change how your were born, nor does that matter for the present. But it does affect what you can accomplish, in both good and bad ways, and doesn't hurt anyone else. So it's a fitting and simple analogy. Thanks for sharing that!