Women arguing against the decision by FINA to disallow transgender women from competing at the olympic games as 'women' because it's 'unscientific'

@bookerdana I'm with you ✌️

@bookerdana that's only the simplified version as to not overwhelm school children. In reality even chromosomes don't strictly divide us into men and women. There are people with XXY chromosomes (thus both XX and XY in a way), people with outside characteristics of both sexes, etc. Natural hormones don't define sex either as everyone has both testosterone and oestrogen, where some people everyone would classify as a woman have more male hormones than men and vice versa.

I'm all for different classes on sports based on ability, but splitting people into two genders is impossible, regardless what criteria you use.

@NerdyPotato
It’s worked for thousands of years. Of course it’s not impossible. It’s the intent to split sports into two genders.

How are they supposed to split the sports, by pronouns?

So if you allow transgender men in women's sports, where do you draw the line? If a man simply says he identifies as a woman, does that give him the right to compete against them? In that case, women's sports would cease to exist.

@NerdyPotato They have dealt with medical issues in sports, where there has been a genetic problem where a persons development has not proceeded normally

You are being disingenuous

Male and female sporting categories have existed further back than the ancient Greeks and the first olympics

It is only now that we have a society ill enough to demand girls and women compete against biological males

There is no confusion over the sex of trans athletes wishing to compete against and dominate the objectively weaker sex

Zero people believe that when William chose to be called Lia - he magically became female.

You don't believe it.

I don't believe it.

So why are you obfuscating? Why is it so important to you that women and girls aren't allowed their own biological category of sport?

@NerdyPotato I know about that,the intersex thing etc but all anyone talkks about is the sport angle

@Adogslife I'd take sex and gender out of the equation and divide people into fair leagues based on their abilities rather than what's in their pants or DNA. I know it's controversial because genitals are so important to kick a ball, but I'm open minded like that.

@SW-User So your sex at birth is what determines your abilities? Does that mean you want trans men to compete in the women's league because they are "biological female"? (Whatever that means after surgery, hormone replacement therapy, etc.)

@bookerdana so do I. These things are part of reality in sports too.

@NerdyPotato Women who have gender dysphoria can compete in female sports unless they are taking performance enhancing drugs

I don't really see a problem with them competing with men, as they don't have a natural biological advantage. Of course they won't win much. That's why we don't hear of it happening.

In many sports at a local level girls are able to play on boys teams - boys can't play on girls for the same reason you don't put a grade 1 player on a grade 3 team - it simply isn't fair.

As the woman who lost her world record for female cycling to a male said "I can train 18 hours a day. I cannot train for a male body."

Once you hit puberty i'm sure you're going to start noticing differences in the bodies of women and men. When you get to that stage there are some good books out there like "What is happening to my body?" that will really help.

@SW-User how could a female lose her world record to a man when the sexes are currently separated? If you mean a transgender woman, I don't think you understand the effects of transitioning. I'll admit there may need to be some standard for how far people have transitioned because that's a gradual process that doesn't happen overnight. An hour after your first hormone replacement treatment, you're still your of sex of course, so simply having started isn't enough.

@NerdyPotato well men can become less athletic than they were prior to transition but that doesn't turn their bodies into female bodies

Do you remember the picture I showed you?

He only has a less athletic male body

When a man decides to take female hormones part of the process is reducing his innate athletic capacity

Since when has winning elite sports been about reducing your innate biological ability? I'll actively reduce my competitiveness and win gold? Whereas prior to that I barely ranked. No.

He is not and never will be female.

A biological male demanding he be allowed to compete in a category if sport specifically created for biological women - is like a mid-range Olympic athlete stubbing his toe and demanding to be allowed to compete in the para-olympics

Now getting away from athletics to your claim that sex organs can be made - that's ludicrous

Man cannot match nature. A trans biological female might let a dr use skin on her stomach to create a simulation of a penis. It will be a penis shaped object made out of stomach skin. She has a high chance of subsequently having incontinence, she is unlikely to have many intact nerve endings so she will struggle to gain much sensation sexually, she will have to stimulate a male erection with a pump that raises up her stomach skin in a salute

In other words the woman has gone through an extreme bodily mutation because having female genitalia causes her great mental distress. Biologically, apart from mutilating herself, nothing has changed.

@SW-User Lia Thomas? I agree it was questionable of the organization to put her in the women's competition at that stage of her transition process. But I don't believe for a second that she or anyone would get a sex change to forward their career, which you seem to imply.

On a side note: her pronoun is she. It's fine to disagree with her career path, but there is no reason to dismiss her identity. Doing so it's very harmful to all transgender people.

As for the "mutilation": that's one way to look at it. I know many transgender men and women who are very happy they did, despite their new organs maybe not functioning the same way as biological versions. If this improves the quality of life for people who undergo such surgery, I see no harm in it. If you don't want it, like me, that's fine. Nobody is forcing us to do it too.

@NerdyPotato I don't care if it is harmful to him, given the harm he has done to women. He's aggression and sense of entitlement mark him clearly as a male in my eyes.

The thing I've come to realise is that lies - the longer you repeat them - become seen to be the truth

And this is why we find ourselves with a narcissistic man in a one piece standing on the female podium -having knocked a biological woman out of the place she has earned.

@NerdyPotato no, it is very important to recognise it is mutilation

Removing a woman's healthy breasts is mutilation

Inverting a man's penis and removing his balls is a multilation

It is an extreme measure - cutting into a healthy body- and the risk if failure - is only appropriate to try and alleviate extreme mental illness and body dysmorphia

That's why in the past it was a laborious process to get approval

If we remember this, we might avoid ending up with a whole cohort of people in deep regret and we also need to be honest that the surgery does not change the person's biological sex, it merely aids them to appear more like the opposite sex

There are many transitioners who are happy

And many who aren't

The ones who aren't often hadn't worked through some serious psychological issues like vulnerabilty from rape (in the case of females) or an inability to accept homosexuality (in the case of males) and mistakenly thought surgery and transition was the only way to go

Others had no real conception that a sex change was not physically possible nor were they appropriately warned of some of the risks and complications

@SW-User As I said earlier, misgendering any person on purpose is harmful to all transgender people. Do you really believe it's fair to drive millions of people a step closer to suicide because one person hurt others too? And was it even her choice or did the organization decide to match transgender women with cis women?

That is why people only transition for those reasons. Nobody ever transitioned merely as a tactical career step.

Correct, and it doesn't have to. If the body changes enough to relieve a person's psychological distress, that's enough.

I agree that psychological guidance and clear information on what to expect throughout the decision making and transition itself are essential. It's a shame this isn't always done sufficiently. There is definitely still some work to be done there.

@NerdyPotato threatening suicide for not getting your way is called emotional manipulation

I'll give William as much respect as he has shown to the gender he is appropriating

I will not contribute to the harm of my sex nor will I contribute to the destruction of female sports by lying to protect the ego of a male narcissist

@SW-User Threatening with suicide can indeed be used as a manipulation tactic, but in many cases it is sincere and not even expressed before it's too late. Way too many transgender people have actually committed suicide because they felt their identity wasn't respected.

You haven't answered my questions, and it's a sincere one because I can't find the answer on the internet. Did Lia (once again: not William!) choose to compete against women or did the organization of the events decide that's where she belonged? And regardless of whether it was her choice or not, do you believe one person harming tens of others makes it alright for you to harm millions who had nothing with that?

It's great that you won't contribute to harming women, but you are contributing rather actively to harming transgender people. How do you feel about that?

@NerdyPotato Well firstly, transgender people aren't an amorphous mass. Not every transgender believes it is enough for a male to say he's a female, some not even making an effort to to appear female, and everyone should comply with his demands

Secondly, there is debate about whether trans risk of suicide is alleviated by calling someone the wrong pronoun. I personally think we could be leading to a massive increase in mental health issues by making trans trendy

Thirdly language is powerful. Calling someone the wrong pronoun can lead to mass societal delusion - as in fact has happened here with biological males taking out records of biological females

So I do not choose to put the demands of a selfish, entitled male above the needs of girls and young women to fair competition

I do not demand women and girls sacrifice their right to fair competition

Or agree it is ok to take that away from them without their explicit consent

Are you aware of how important female sports are to the mental health of females?

Are you aware of the demoralizing affect of knowing you cannot physically win on young female athletes and the importance of fairness in sport?

Are you aware of the psychological damage on females of being told they are not as important as males?

That they must sacrifice their goals and ambitions, their happiness for men?

And if they don't they'll be revilled as selfish?

That a largely male panel will decide that women again aren't as important as a bloke. That their feelings are inherently worth less than his

Etc etc etc

How do you feel about actively harming young girls?

And not only am I putting my biological sex over the fantasies of Willian and his ilk I'm also scientifically and objectively correct

That's a dude.

I am really disappointed in you that you don't seem to understand innate fairness

Surely you wouldn't take advantage of your greater strength to rob a woman of their achievement?

I wouldn't compete against children and feel any satisfaction if I beat them

To see these chucks up on a podium beaming and accepting adulation while their victim is unseen - the woman whose achievement they stole - whose place they took, is perverse

Where is decency? Where is integrity? Where is valuing the achievements of female athletes?

William is still a middle rank male. His sporting prowess isn't suddenly amazing and inspiring because he grew his hair long and walked around the female locker room with his dick hanging out

@NerdyPotato In addition, I believe the nuevo trans movement is profoundly sexist. It arose from scientific studies that have subsequently been discredited that there is such a thing as a "male" brain and a "female" brain.

It is far healthier if a male that wants to wear dresses and grow his hair long feel able to do that as a male, than to become convinced he has the "wrong" body and undergo major surgery

And if William thinks he has the "wrong" body - why is he using that body to beat the owners of the body he feels he should have -but doesn't

In reality I see very little evidence most trans even have the qualities stereotypically attributed to the sex they're claiming.

It is largely skin deep, superficial adherence to the current modern fashion most stereotypically associated with the opposite sex.

William with his male entitlement and that 'Elliot' chick bawling and whimpering - hardly a paragon of masculinity - why then, did she hack her breasts off?

So really one has to ask what it is all actually about and what any of it actually means or signifies

It is a profoundly illogical movement

@NerdyPotato "It's great that you won't contribute to harming women, but you are contributing rather actively to harming transgender people. How do you feel about that?"

I'll give you an allegory to help you understand my position on what has happened to women's sports

You live in a village. In that village there is a madman who believes he is a Prince. If anybody contradicts him he becomes unpredictable and violent. You agree that it is kinder and more sensible to address him as "Prince."

You wake up one day and find the man sitting at your table eating your food. His pockets are stuffed with your belongings.

You race outside to get help to remove this man from your house.
When you try to get people to help you they reply, "but we can't. He's a Prince."