Let's have a stateless and classless society

@KioCo I said stateless, not autocratic

@Guitarman123 pointless delineation, any system that requires broad changes will end up in the hands of autocrats.

@KioCoso your option is maintain the status quo?

@Guitarman123 yes, much more preferable to what the historic or current global norm is.

If you get to talk sh*t about your rulers without being arrested, you're pretty much among the luckiest generations in history.

Not to mention that the issues we point out are laughable compared to every other system anyone has ever implemented.

@KioCo in the uk where I'm from people got arrested for protesting against King tampon and trump cried everytime someone criticised him like a little baby. The issues of today are that workers are struggling whilst the bosses earn millions in profits.

@Guitarman123 yep

@Guitarman123 As opposed to what?

Notice how you can call Trump and the British royal family whatever you want and no death meets you or those around you - usually not the case.

And the only difference in other systems is that the inequality is in political power and not just income, which is far easier to abuse.

@KioCo society is riddled with inequality because we've being trained by the capitalist system into believing that competition and alienating ourselves from each other is perfectly normal

@Guitarman123 Thats a baseless statement.

Tribes of chimps wage wars with each other over more valuable territories (based on availability of food).

To make that claim you would need to prove that the alternative is possible in practice. And unfortunately to do that, a very perilous societal experiment would be needed.

Also, this debate was already raging in ancient Greece. Plato advocated for government ownership to curb greed while Aristotle believed that greed is too fundimental a human trait to be curbed and suggested a system to mitigate it.

Stating that you're certain what the correct answer is is nothing else than setting yourself up for failure.

@Emosaur sure, lets pretend those places worked which is why they are so bountifull or successful today.....

Ps: a system cannot be called functioning if its that easy to destroy. Resilience is part of the equation.

@Emosaur you mean when the government closed the entire economy by force?

@KioCo @KioCo chimps like many animals also work in Co operation to survive and always have done so. With that logic you would also need to show how the current system is benefitting everyone and not just a minority of people born into fortunate conditions. Peter Kropotkin also believed that mutual aid was as much a part of human nature as is social Darwinism. I've made no claim to be certain in my views but I strongly stand by what I stand by

@Guitarman123 fair enough. Although I disagree with Peter Kropotkin in that regard.

And the cooperation you mentioned in animals is limited to tribal affinity. I personally believe the norm is survival of the fittest.

@Guitarman123 also, the system is benefiting everyone since I am fully able to improve my standing based on the skills I obtain.

Not to mention that the life expectancy has increased for the vast majority of people, not to mention that this is the fist time in history that the poorer classes are able to demand aid and actually get it. You can disagree with the amount, but the fact that it exists is a historic outlier

@KioCo ye tribal communism which is what animals and early forms of man lived in as they wouldn't have had the capability to survive in an alienated environment

@KioCo natural selection does exist but it isn't the sole reason we've survived this long

@KioCo the system is alienating everyone who refuses to play the game of dog eat dog. Cubas life expectancy is the same as America and has next to zero homeless rate whereas America has 582,462 homeless people

@Guitarman123 tribal communism can only be extended to the localised groups, which would mean family and community. Not a nation consisting of thousands or even a forest of numerous tribes.

The moment it passes that boundary you have to deal with the issue of corruption. Since I will always prioritise my own tribe over the others.

Regardless, this is a conversation that is pointless to have since the disagreement appears to be in out views of human nature.

@Guitarman123 then why does Cuba need to ban people from leaving if its so much better?

And moreover, why would cubas seek asylum in the US?

@KioCo people can leave cuba freely. Because America has a bigger economy. Why do people like trump attempt to stop asylum seekers?

@Guitarman123 thats based on voting patterns if I recall (cetain populations historically vote left wing and others like cubans right wing) and Im pretty sure Trump or the US righr dont oppose cubans. - although I might be wrong on this as I dont follow US politics that closely.

Also, sorry but its not true that Cubans can leave freely.

And if the size of the economy were any indication, then wouldnt Switzerland be less populair of a destination than places like India or China? Or even Italy or Spain? Its generally the standard of living that correlates with immigration patterns

@KioCo and what your saying is based on what? Most of the time people's as they get older vote right wing but millenials are breaking that tradition and are becoming more left wing. Cubans have been able to leave freely without government intervention for years I'm afraid. It's the embargo that's keeping cubas economy in the current condition. The standard of living in the UK in particular is getting worse as a result of the cost of living crises and 80 per cent of of workers in America are unhappy in their jobs. As well as has 582,462 homeless people america has around 3 million living in poverty