I think some transgenderism is the result of a desire of some young people to follow a trend.

@JestAJester Duh, because he's a propaganda-spewing Fascist. He edits those interviews to make trans allies look bad

@BohemianBabe lol if you say so. Can you answer the question what is a woman?

@JestAJester I saw it.

@JestAJester A woman is anyone who identifies as one.
Gender is cultural and identity-based. Throughout history, it's always been about identity and the attributes associated with that identity. Conservatives won't admit it, but they agree.

@BohemianBabe ok if a woman is anyone who identifies as one. What are they identifying as? What is the definition?

@JestAJester So if you want to get technical, a "woman" is anyone who identifies with an arbitrary group of traits society assigns to females are birth. Those traits make up the "woman" archetype.
Because the traits are arbitrary, males can also adopt the traits and be women. Just like females can be men.

@JestAJester Meh, seems more Ben Shapiro than especially informative.

@BohemianBabe arbitrary: based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system. So what youre saying is its not subjective? There is no objective definition? So the meaning of woman is completely subjective and ambiguous so essentially a useless term because no one knows what you mean by woman.

What are those traits exactly? If biology does not make a woman a woman which it clearly does because that is the definition. That is the standard we have been using for a very long time. What traits make a woman a woman?

@JestAJester No, I'm saying the traits that society assigns to females are arbitrary. That's why they differ by region and period. The "woman" archetype exists, but it's always changing and is different based on the society in question.

Nope, sociologists have always acknowledged the difference between sex and gender. Sex is biology, gender is cultural. This is why every society recognizes male and female, but many societies have more than two genders.

Because the traits are arbitrary and often contradictory, I say the only trait that matters is how they identify. If a person identifies as a woman, then they're a woman. I'm not going to tell anyone, whether cis or trans, that they're not a woman because they aren't wearing a skirt today.

@BohemianBabe still havent given me a concrete definition of woman. Im not sure you have a firm grasp of the English language. Words have set meanings so that when we use them in casual conversations our listeners know what we are talking about. If transwomen are women, why not call them women? It seems theres a distinction between transwomen and women, if there wasnt theyd just be called women wouldnt they?

@JestAJester
Yes I have. A woman is someone who identifies with a bunch of traits that society assigns females at birth.

Yes, sex and gender terms are often used interchangeably in every day talk. However, as I said, sociologists have always recognized the difference.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction


First, I do just call them women. Second, sure, there are lots of different kinds of women. There are trans women, cis women, black women, white women, short women, tall women, and so on. But they're all women.

@BohemianBabe yah but see ciswomen all the way to tall women all have one major concrete trait in common. Theyre all female. Right down to their dna, they are biological females, hence women. The transwomen has more in common with me than those women, in that he is a biological male, hence a man. I dont care if he likes makeup, dresses in drag, thinks like a female, whatever. That does not make a man a woman. We use to call that personality.

If society is what determines what is female and what is male, you get a nonsenical word that can change its definition at the drop of a hat. Defeats the purpose of words having concrete definitions. You cant use them because the meaning is so ambiguous. So i am still unsure what you mean when you say transwomen are women.

@BohemianBabe That definition is changing, though.The scientific definition was sex is biology (chromosomes, genitalia, and gametes) and gender is the behavioral expression of sex characteristics. the social sciences and humanities said gender is a relational social construct while sex is biological, but now they are saying gender and sex are the same, which is why people are automatically affirmed. if someone says they are a woman, they must automatically be accepted as a woman. it used to be that people felt dysphoria, and while they wanted to live as the opposite sex to ease their discomfort, they were never assumed to actually be the opposite sex.

@JestAJester
Sure, but female is biological sex. We're talking about gender here. And while cis women and trans women are different kinds of women, they're both still women.


Words don't have concrete definitions. Society decides what words mean.


I said that a woman is anyone who identifies with the collection of traits assigned to females at birth. That includes trans women, yes? It's pretty simple.

@blindbob
Only Conservatives say that and they're wrong.

@BohemianBabe That's not true. I'm in academia. Believe me, they are saying gender and sex are the same. It's the basis of the whole shift in thinking. This is why this liberal got off the train a few stops back. I'm willing to accept the fact that some people feel great discomfort in their body and in how they are seen societally, but I'm not willing to accept that they ARE the other sex.

@BohemianBabe oxford dictionary, the standard for definitions in the english language, says woman is a biological, human female. You're telling me your definition superceeds the standard that has stood since 1895? This is not a wikipedia page where anyone can edit stuff at their whim

@blindbob Well after a person has had sexual reassignment surgery and has taken hormones, it can be argued that they have become a different sex, biologically speaking. But that's a whole different discussion.

But as for the idea that gender and sex are the same, I've never heard anyone say that, other than NPC Conservatives.

@blindbob somehow living in a delusional fantasy of their own making is enough to satisfy them. As long as they can appear as a woman while not having any literal or biological woman aspects seems to be enough for them. Well some, others go the extra mile and get surgery. Which apparently has a high mortality rate

@BohemianBabe You can argue what you want. I'm an academic. I have written articles, taught, and presented at conferences. I don't really publish in this area anymore because I would lose my job for speaking out against the mob.

@JestAJester Like I said, the terms are often used interchangeably. That doesn't change the fact that sex and gender are different.

Also like I said, society determines what words mean, and American society generally agrees with my definitions here.

@BohemianBabe theyre still not though. Sex goes right down to your bones, your dna. That is why if you die and scientists discover your bones a 100 years later, they will determine by your bones you are in fact a male or female. They have no idea what was in your head. But your bones tell them the truth about what you are

@blindbob yah cant talk against them. Automatically labeled a fascist or transphobe

@blindbob Can you give me ANY evidence at all that this is a common view outside of right-wing circles?

@JestAJester I think you can do whatever you want to your body if you're a consenting adult and you're not hurting others. my problem is when they compel others to accept them as the opposite sex, or when they start the process on minors. I also don't like when they're don't get express consent from sexual partners.