@jarrod73 Yes, MacArthur and Sproul believed in predestination and divine election. But... to regard only these truly calvinist elements as being the defining features, no, not all Protestants believe in that. While the term appears in the Bible the many Protestant confessions of faith, Protestant denominations, hold very different views on what it means.

The Reformed / Calvinist Tradition have the so-called Double Predestination. The Lutheran Tradition has the Single Predestination. The Arminian / Wesleyan Tradition the Conditional Election. My own recognised reformed church, the Anglican Church, even doesn't believe in hardline predestination at all.

While the historic foundational documents of the Church of England include a moderate statement on the subject, Anglicanism encompasses a wide theological spectrum rather than the single, rigid view. The rejection comes in many forms too. Catholic Anglicans for one clearly reject the calvinist interpretations of the teachings of predestination altogether.

@Adstar I agree but I'd argue that with Rerum Novarum and the Second Vatican Council as it was in totally agreed upon at the time a lot inside Catholic Church was put back in line with the teachings of Christ Himself. Here I'd also like to say that the movement to turn the last back is indeed a sign of the worst to come, or rather what some of those individuals are attempting to bring back. Funny enough, Latin Masses can still be done, but somehow a corner set aside inside the Vatican Library for Muslim scholars is a sign of evil? Humbug!

@val70 Well having grown up till my early 20's in the catholic religion i am familiar with catholic teachings and the big and smaller problems in their doctrine.. The biggest problem is the teaching in regard to purgatory.. The catholic belief that there is a place of suffering where people go after death to get their sins purged.. This doctrine denies the sufficiency of the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ..

Basic Christianity 101 is that the Death of Jesus on the cross was a sacrifice that atoned for the sins of all who believe Jesus and trust in His atonement.. That there is no other way for a Christian to have the penalty for their sins paid for but by having Jesus pay the penalty..

Of course Jesus made an exception for the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit that He said would never have forgiveness in this world or the next.. But all other sins can be covered by His atoning blood that was shed on the cross..

As far as i am concerned the catholic doctrine of purgatory dismisses the catholic church from Christianity..

@AdmiralPrune Glad to hear that you think that the Bible is a plus :)

@val70 I was tho king more the decentralisation of Latin authority.

But sure take from it what you will, princess.

@AdmiralPrune I don't think so -but all that plasic bats and witches rhubar originated from the American supermaket "industry" !

I am not religious but even I respect All Hallows Eve, not pseudo-"Hallowe'en".

@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow Reaction on reactions:

1. Who cares. The point was to have an access to the Bible in some format in ones own spoken language. The Welsh language bible had even fewer books but had the direct backing from court;

2. True, but catholic Anglicans for one don't go through that. It's in the end how one takes it. Plenty of truly Wesleyan Methodists don't have any calvinist sharp teeth on show to the outside world;

3. Education through religious indoctrination was on the other side too. Plenty of Jesuits saying give us your children in this regard. Done in other cultures too. Personally, I do think that the Jesuits were the most trully intellectual religious order somehow. Plenty of them in the resistance during the second world war. One of my family members was and sheltered large groups of Jewish children.

4. Nah, you clearly haven't studied this much either. John Locke’s political philosophy, which laid the foundation for modern liberalism, was deeply rooted in Protestant theology and the religious conflicts of 17th-century England. While liberalism is often viewed today as a secular ideology, its origin relies heavily on Protestant concepts regarding the individual's relationship with God, the nature of conscience, and the rejection of absolute hierarchy.

(5.) Even now Protestantism places a central emphasis on a personal, direct relationship with God, removing human intermediaries in real position of power concerning theology and application of Christian doctrine—as priests, bishops, or saints—between the individual believer and the divine. Yes, at the core is a doctrine that states that every Christian has direct access to God through Jesus Christ. Most so-called Protestants nowadays still hold on to the thought that salvation is a free gift received through personal faith in Jesus Christ.

Moreover, some actually stay catholic in the real sense of the word that showns in for example the correct use of the Book of Common Prayer. Daily quiet times, Scripture reading, and personal reflection are emphasized as vital habits for growing closer to God. That's for common folk and not only the religious folk. True personal contemplation while still staying inside a close community called congregation.

@val70 Who cares? As a protestant you believe in the bible is the word of god. And yet when a group of men with a political agenda arbitrarily alter it to their own ends that doesn't matter? Those are completely contradictory positions.



2. Now you are arbitrarily picking and choosing on the fly whatever sect suites your argument at any given moment to pretend they were not extremists.


In this case babbling about Methodists that didn't even start on the same continent and came about hundreds of years later.


3. Maybe but you are the one pretending in your statement that Protestants did it as an act of liberation of the lower classes. That is factually false and now you are just moving the goalpost with

"well everyone else does it so it is ok" .


4. And you are just making shit up and inventing out of whole cloth a fantasy that the reformation had anything to do with democracy and liberalism and again jumping 200 years later to cherry pick random bits and pretending that because a single historical figure was protestant that that makes everything from Martin Luther some liberal democratic movement is just comically historical fiction.


You are just picking random things from history and pretending it means what you claim it means.



And your claims about individual interpretation being most important to protestants is just objectively false. Denominations literally exist to impose dogma.


Church doctrine by definition exists to override individual interpretation. That is the entire point.


The very idea of salvation through faith and not works is by definition a doctrine and dogma that makes it clear that any personal interpretation that doesn't comply is "wrong". That is literally the opposite of embracing individual relationship with the divine.

That is dogma.

The very idea of a correct use of a book of prayer again is doctrine and dogma and individual spirituality is utterly irrelevant.


It is identical doctrines and dogma structures the only difference is arguing over who is correct. And to belong to a church you are required to comply with their doctrines and dogmas.



Your ignorance is breathtaking.

@BlueSkyKing You think that the last century was any better, or even today? Heard someone say that they'll bomb a country to the stone age recently? It was not the Reformation that killed but the human animal yet again.

@val70 Not long ago, there was the trouble that was in Northern Ireland. Both sides believed in Christ, that didn’t stop the bombings.

@BlueSkyKing I met people from there. There's even a Black Order :)