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Proselytizing

A few posts recently on the subject of proselytizing. Obviously a touchy subject. Live and let live is the cry, yet if we feel we have found something truly valuable it seems right in some ways to wish to share it.

"The Tao can be shared but not divided"

The Dharma, Buddhism, has its own scriptural exhortation to spread its message:-

Go forth, O monks, to bless the many, to bring happiness to the many, out of compassion for the world; go forth for the welfare, the blessing, the happiness of all beings.........Go forth and spread the teaching that is beautiful in the beginning, beautiful in the middle and beautiful in the end.

(From the Theravada scriptures)

Maybe we can only truly share ourselves? There were the words on one young girl who was new to Buddhism, who said something like "when I was a Buddhist, no one listened, but when I was a Buddha they liked me."

Well, maybe so, but trying to act like a Buddha can be pretty demanding......😀.....if not impossible.

One of the reasons that I like Thomas Merton is that he was rarely, if ever, didactic. He wrote as he saw it and left it up to you. In a letter written to an Indian lady he said:-

I hate proselytizing. This awful buisness of making others just like oneself so that one is thereby "justified" and under no obligation to change himself. What a terrible thing this can be. The source of how many sicknesses in the world. The true Christian apostolate is nothing of this sort, a fact that Christians themselves have largely forgotten. I think it was......Tauler (or maybe Eckhart) who said in a sermon that even if the church were empty he would preach the sermon to the four walls because he had to. That is the true apostolic spirit, based not on the desire to make others conform, but in the desire to proclaim and announce the good tidings of God's infinite love. In this context the preacher is not a "converter" but merely a herald, a voice, and the Spirit of the Lord is left free to act as He pleases. But this has degenerated into a doctrine and fashion of "convert-makers" in which man exerts pressure and techniques (this awful business of "modern techniques of propaganda") upon his fellow man in order to make him, force him, bring him under a kind of charm that compels him to abandon his own integrity and his own freedom and yield to another man or another institution. Little do men realize that in such a situation the Holy Spirit is silent and inactive, or perhaps active against the insolence of man. Hence the multitude of honest and sincere men who "cannot accept" a message that is preached without respect for the Spirit of God or for the spirit of man.

(I just wish the guy had been a bit more PC.......😀)

But whatever, Merton explained his attitude elsewhere, in a Preface to one collection of his writings:-

I have tried to learn in my writing a monastic lesson I could probably have not learned otherwise: to let go of my idea of myself, to take myself with more than one grain of salt................In religious terms, this is simply a matter of accepting life, and everything in life as a gift, and clinging to none of it, as far as you are able. You give some of it to others, if you can. Yet one should be able to share things with others without bothering too much about how they like it, either, or how they accept it. Assume they will accept it, if they need it. And if they don't need it, why should they accept it? That is their business. Let me accept what is mine and give them all their share, and go my way.

But, as for the vulture evangelists, who - however they try to hide it - always imply that eternal torment (or at least the gnashing of teeth) awaits anyone who rejects their message........well, I would not want any of them to come within 10 miles of my grandchildren.


What do others think?
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hippyjoe1955 · 70-79, M
In Christianity we are charged by Christ Himself "To go into all nations and make disciples baptizing them in the Name of the Father and the Son and Tho Holy Spirit." That however is not making them into mini mes It is introducing them to Jesus Himself and let them grow as He teaches. While I am to stand with the young Christian and offer advice I am not his primary teacher.
SW-User
@hippyjoe1955 Hi, I have to say that my experience with many evangelicals of the Christian tradition is that they seek to spread what can only be called "Jesusainity". This is not Christianity in its full depth, but a modernism derived from - and since - the Protestant Reformation, with its creed of sola scriptura and the subsequent splintering of Christianity into diverse sects all claiming to be the "true christians". Thus, in effect, putting their trust in believing correctly rather than in Grace/Christ. A creed of "works".
hippyjoe1955 · 70-79, M
@SW-User As opposed to????? Jesus said "Come unto Me" He didn't say to go through the rituals of the Catholic or Orthodox churches much of which is an attempt by the church to control its adherents.
SW-User
@hippyjoe1955 Yes, come unto me. Not come unto Protestant Reform Theology as developed since 1517 by a whole host of theologians. Most of whom appear to condemn anything but their very own biblical hermeneutics as "apostate".
hippyjoe1955 · 70-79, M
@SW-User The protestants didn't come up with anything new. They were simply trying to go back to the original church. Its teachings and practices apart from all the accretions that have attached to the Orthodox and Catholic traditions such as the worship of Mary, infant baptism, the selling of indulgences, the idea of purgatory etc etc etc.
SW-User
@hippyjoe1955 No. You speak of Protestant theology and its various claims. There is no "going back". There was right at the beginning various strands of belief and teachings - which can actually be seen now in the text as we have it (a text, what's more, that has been shown conclusively to have been amended/altered over the first few centuries AD given the variations in the surviving manuscripts)

Any reading of the Early Church Fathers (who themselves were agents in determining exactly which of the many "gospels" and "letters" and other books would become part of the "authoriative" canon) taught diverse and varied things, including Universalism. Any attempt to argue a "going back" to what was "first taught plainly" is fallacious, misguided and simple Protestant special pleading.

Please don't put your faith in "correct belief" rather than Christ.
hippyjoe1955 · 70-79, M
@SW-User Your ignorance of Protestant Christianity is boundless
SW-User
@hippyjoe1955 No, it isn't. I am well read in many of its various strands.

Anyway, I suspect you are one of those vulture evangelists. Please keep well clear of my grandchildren.

😀
hippyjoe1955 · 70-79, M
@SW-User I suspect you read a book so now you are expert. The idea behind the Reformation was to get back to a more basic form of Christianity. The RC church was and still is no longer Christian. It is little more than a political entity that claims magic powers. Even the Orthodox Church calls out it's many errors.
SW-User
@hippyjoe1955 No, I have read literally over 50 or so books (I don't keep count) on Protestant Christianity. Historical and also by various theologians - of various traditions, liberal and even fundamentalist. I have also read the NT right through about 7 times, plus commentaries on many of its books, again both liberal, progressive and more conservative.

Where have I claimed to be an expert? I simply disagree with you.

"Errors" are in the eye of the beholder. One has only to take up a position, declare it to be "true", and then judge all other positions from that position. As you do.

Once again, please do not make the mistake of trusting in your own error free beliefs, rather than in Christ and true Grace.

Thank you.
hippyjoe1955 · 70-79, M
@SW-User yeah a reader of defamatory books does not make knowledgable.
SW-User
@hippyjoe1955 Why say "defamatory"?
hippyjoe1955 · 70-79, M
@SW-User the books you read all have an agenda.
SW-User
@hippyjoe1955 I think you haven't actually read my entire post. I spoke of a diverse range of opinion within the entire Protestant tradition. Including what I presume would support your own position.

Of course they all have an agenda. Even those that support your own "agenda."

I repeat - beware of trusting in one's own "correctness" of belief, and not in Christ and Grace alone.
hippyjoe1955 · 70-79, M
@SW-User I think you are too busy proselytizing to realize what you wrote is nonsense.
SW-User
@hippyjoe1955 I have explained clearly my own attitude toward proselytizing. I'm not seeking to convince anyone of anything.

Really, to simply accuse another of writing nonsense without actually engaging with what they have written, is - quite frankly - pointless.

No one is questioning your own "salvation" as such.

All the best.
hippyjoe1955 · 70-79, M
@SW-User this what you hate in others is what you are doing yourself.
SW-User
@hippyjoe1955 Why speak of my "hate? Quote evidence of my "hate".

I have simply questioned just how efficacious Protestant Reform Theology is - and suggested that it is no substitute for Grace.

You respond by saying that my knowledge of said Theology is boundless ignorance, and then "nonsense" - this without any explanation.

There has been no hate.

Once again, all the best.
hippyjoe1955 · 70-79, M
@SW-User only haters can't see their own hatred.
SW-User
@hippyjoe1955 You appear determined to see hate in me. Maybe it is this idea of the "righteous" being persecuted. To presume the hatred towards you of others adds to your sense of being "justified". Once more, avoiding pure Grace.
hippyjoe1955 · 70-79, M
@SW-User I am pointing out the hate in you. I don't hate you any more than I know you. You posted a hateful article and continue to defend it. Sucks to be a hater like you.
SW-User
@hippyjoe1955 Please quote the words of my "hateful" article. I was disagreeing with a particular brand of theology. Such is not hate.

GOOD GRIEF! Are you self-proclaimed "true christians" the only ones who can justly claim to love the sinner but hate the sin?

(Said with a smile........)

😀


All the best.
SW-User
@hippyjoe1955 Hello again Joe!

Looking back I can find only my own understanding of what is often called "Protestant Reform Theology".

To quote:-

Hi, I have to say that my experience with many evangelicals of the Christian tradition is that they seek to spread what can only be called "Jesusainity". This is not Christianity in its full depth, but a modernism derived from - and since - the Protestant Reformation, with its creed of sola scriptura and the subsequent splintering of Christianity into diverse sects all claiming to be the "true christians". Thus, in effect, putting their trust in believing correctly rather than in Grace/Christ. A creed of "works".

Although I have used other words in subsequent posts, they were no more "hateful", certainly not in my intent.

You have simply implied my "ignorance" without explaining further. Then spoken of my "ignorance", again without any details as such.

This, in my opinion is not "hate" in any way, shape or form. I simply find, from my own reading of the various theologies that can be found in the whole Christian Faith, that there are better theologies than that found in the Protestant Reform Tradition.

We have had a discussion. There has been no hate.

I am sorry that you insist upon seeing it that way.

All the best.

(I will not respond to you again on this subject)