PSA: There's no such thing as an "Agnostic". You are either a Theist or an Atheist. You either believe that a god exists or you don't. It's binary.
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PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
Not that simple. But that is the thought process of most Evangelicals I have met.
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow
I think it is that simple because unless your answer to the question "Do you believe in at least one god?" is "Yes"....then you're an atheist.
You might be a gnostic atheist, you might be an agnostic atheist but an atheist you are.
Same goes for the theist.
There is no third category as far as i can tell. What alternative would you posit?
I think it is that simple because unless your answer to the question "Do you believe in at least one god?" is "Yes"....then you're an atheist.
You might be a gnostic atheist, you might be an agnostic atheist but an atheist you are.
Same goes for the theist.
There is no third category as far as i can tell. What alternative would you posit?
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@Pikachu That makes no sense at all.
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow
Well if you can make a more specific criticism then maybe we can work through it.
To clarify: Gnostic/agnostic describes a position of knowledge while theist/atheist describes a position of belief.
Well if you can make a more specific criticism then maybe we can work through it.
To clarify: Gnostic/agnostic describes a position of knowledge while theist/atheist describes a position of belief.
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@Pikachu An atheist by definition is someone who believes no gods exist. It is literally in the name.
There is no such thing as a "agnostic atheist." That is an oxymoron. It is a nonsense term.
A theist believes in a higher power.
And agnostic is someone who believes humans are incapable of knowing for sure either way.
There is no such thing as a "agnostic atheist." That is an oxymoron. It is a nonsense term.
A theist believes in a higher power.
And agnostic is someone who believes humans are incapable of knowing for sure either way.
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow
Not quite.
An atheist by definition is someone who disbelieves in a god OR simply lacks belief in a god:
a·the·ist
/ˈāTHēəst/
noun
a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
On the contrary, it's the only sensible position for an atheist to take.
I think perhaps you didn't pay sufficient attention to my last post.
Gnostic/agnostic describes a position of knowledge while theist/atheist describes a position of belief.
Gnostic means knowledge, agnostic, without knowledge.
So you can certainly lack a belief or actively disbelieve in the existence of a god but not have knowledge that this is true.
That would make you an agnostic atheist. A person who doesn't believe god is real but who recognizes that it is impossible to know for certain.
An atheist by definition is someone who believes no gods exist.
Not quite.
An atheist by definition is someone who disbelieves in a god OR simply lacks belief in a god:
a·the·ist
/ˈāTHēəst/
noun
a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
There is no such thing as a "agnostic atheist." That is an oxymoron. It is a nonsense term.
On the contrary, it's the only sensible position for an atheist to take.
I think perhaps you didn't pay sufficient attention to my last post.
Gnostic/agnostic describes a position of knowledge while theist/atheist describes a position of belief.
Gnostic means knowledge, agnostic, without knowledge.
So you can certainly lack a belief or actively disbelieve in the existence of a god but not have knowledge that this is true.
That would make you an agnostic atheist. A person who doesn't believe god is real but who recognizes that it is impossible to know for certain.
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@Pikachu The first part is a distinction without a difference. Just a restatement of exactly the same thing.
And the second part that just makes you an agnostic. Tacking atheist on it is nonsensical. Atheist by definition is a firm belief there is no higher power.
You are trying to invent new definitions.
And the second part that just makes you an agnostic. Tacking atheist on it is nonsensical. Atheist by definition is a firm belief there is no higher power.
You are trying to invent new definitions.
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow
Nope.
I have seen the arguments and evidences for a god and i am not convinced that one exists. I disbelieve in the existence of gods.
A child who has never been exposed to the idea of god simply lacks belief in a god.
We are both atheists.
Actually it appears that you are trying to invent new definitions. Unless you can link me to a definition of atheist that says the atheist must know they are right.
Nope.
Because you can ONLY be a theist if you hold a belief in a god. If you do not hold a belief in a god then you are an atheist.
A-theist: Without god.
As you say, it's right in the name. So unless your answer to the question "Do you believe in a god?" is "yes", then you are an atheist, either gnostic or agnostic.
Again, gnostic/agnostic is describing whether or not you know a god exists. Atheist/theist is describing whether or not you believe a god exists.
These are two distinct descriptions.
Gnostic/agnostic is the adjective, theist/atheist is the noun.
I am an atheist because i do not believe that a god exists and i am an agnostic atheist because i do not know for sure.
The first part is a distinction without a difference.
Nope.
I have seen the arguments and evidences for a god and i am not convinced that one exists. I disbelieve in the existence of gods.
A child who has never been exposed to the idea of god simply lacks belief in a god.
We are both atheists.
Atheist by definition is a firm belief there is no higher power ... You are trying to invent new definitions.
Actually it appears that you are trying to invent new definitions. Unless you can link me to a definition of atheist that says the atheist must know they are right.
And the second part that just makes you an agnostic
Nope.
Because you can ONLY be a theist if you hold a belief in a god. If you do not hold a belief in a god then you are an atheist.
A-theist: Without god.
As you say, it's right in the name. So unless your answer to the question "Do you believe in a god?" is "yes", then you are an atheist, either gnostic or agnostic.
Again, gnostic/agnostic is describing whether or not you know a god exists. Atheist/theist is describing whether or not you believe a god exists.
These are two distinct descriptions.
Gnostic/agnostic is the adjective, theist/atheist is the noun.
I am an atheist because i do not believe that a god exists and i am an agnostic atheist because i do not know for sure.
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@Pikachu
Congratulations you are an atheist. No random contradictory qualifiers required.
Incidentally your response completely sidestepped that you just played with words and didn't say anything different.
And the baby argument is just a nonsense meme.
And congratulations ending your statement by doubling down on the fact you have no idea what any of these words mean.
This is an agenda not a serious argument. You are trying to new definition to make anyone who is not atheist an atheist which is illogical and a dishonest position.
This is the kind of shit you see from 2015 era Youtube "new Atheists." It is not a serious position.
Nope.
I have seen the arguments and evidences for a god and i am not convinced that one exists. I disbelieve in the existence of gods.
I have seen the arguments and evidences for a god and i am not convinced that one exists. I disbelieve in the existence of gods.
Congratulations you are an atheist. No random contradictory qualifiers required.
Incidentally your response completely sidestepped that you just played with words and didn't say anything different.
And the baby argument is just a nonsense meme.
And congratulations ending your statement by doubling down on the fact you have no idea what any of these words mean.
This is an agenda not a serious argument. You are trying to new definition to make anyone who is not atheist an atheist which is illogical and a dishonest position.
This is the kind of shit you see from 2015 era Youtube "new Atheists." It is not a serious position.
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow
Are you genuinely unable to see the difference between active disbelief based on your experience and a passive lack of belief from never having been exposed to the concept?
I think if you want to refute that distinction you'll need to do more than simply assert that there is no distinction, you'll have to explain why they should be considered the same.
Nope.
I am using only existing definitions.
Let me ask you two questions:
1) Can you be a theist is you cannot honestly say "Yes, i believe in a god"?
2) Can an "agnostic" honestly say "Yes, i believe in a god"?
Finally, i'd like to see you address this point head on, at last:
Again, gnostic/agnostic is describing whether or not you know a god exists. Atheist/theist is describing whether or not you believe a god exists.
The former is a position of knowledge which describes the position of belief.
If you take issue with that, explain why.
Incidentally your response completely sidestepped that you just played with words and didn't say anything different
And the baby argument is just a nonsense meme.
And the baby argument is just a nonsense meme.
Are you genuinely unable to see the difference between active disbelief based on your experience and a passive lack of belief from never having been exposed to the concept?
I think if you want to refute that distinction you'll need to do more than simply assert that there is no distinction, you'll have to explain why they should be considered the same.
You are trying to new definition
Nope.
I am using only existing definitions.
Let me ask you two questions:
1) Can you be a theist is you cannot honestly say "Yes, i believe in a god"?
2) Can an "agnostic" honestly say "Yes, i believe in a god"?
Finally, i'd like to see you address this point head on, at last:
Again, gnostic/agnostic is describing whether or not you know a god exists. Atheist/theist is describing whether or not you believe a god exists.
The former is a position of knowledge which describes the position of belief.
If you take issue with that, explain why.
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@Pikachu Atheist means you have a disbelief in god or gods. Full stop.
By definition you cannot disbelieve in something you are unaware of so claiming babies are atheist is idiotic.
A baby is agnostic, full stop. Agnostic by definition means they hold no position either way.
That is just patently wrong and you seem determined to misrepresent this position for an agenda.
Agnostic means only one thing, that you take no position either way. This definition has existed for literal centuries.
That is the only logical reason you would misrepresent centuries of philosophy.
By definition you cannot disbelieve in something you are unaware of so claiming babies are atheist is idiotic.
A baby is agnostic, full stop. Agnostic by definition means they hold no position either way.
Again, gnostic/agnostic is describing whether or not you know a god exists.
That is just patently wrong and you seem determined to misrepresent this position for an agenda.
Agnostic means only one thing, that you take no position either way. This definition has existed for literal centuries.
That is the only logical reason you would misrepresent centuries of philosophy.
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow
Seems like you're trying to invent your own definitions because you're only half right.
Let me make explicit your mistake:
a·the·ist
/ˈāTHēəst/
noun
a person who disbelieves OR lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
There is included in that definition a nuance. If you think it is a distinction without a difference then make your case because simply asserting that this is so is obviously insufficient.
Certainly...which is why the definition of atheist includes lack of belief. This is why the questions i've asked (and i hope you will show the honesty of answering this time) are important.
Nope.
Agnostic means you believe there is no way to know for sure one way or the other.
You didn't answer my questions and i think we both know why.
But perhaps it was just an oversight. Do please answer them directly this time, if you can.
1) Can you be a theist if you cannot honestly say "Yes, i believe in a god"?
2) Can an "agnostic" honestly say "Yes, i believe in a god"?
Atheist means you have a disbelief in god or gods. Full stop
Seems like you're trying to invent your own definitions because you're only half right.
Let me make explicit your mistake:
a·the·ist
/ˈāTHēəst/
noun
a person who disbelieves OR lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
There is included in that definition a nuance. If you think it is a distinction without a difference then make your case because simply asserting that this is so is obviously insufficient.
By definition you cannot disbelieve in something you are unaware
Certainly...which is why the definition of atheist includes lack of belief. This is why the questions i've asked (and i hope you will show the honesty of answering this time) are important.
Agnostic means only one thing, that you take no position either way.
Nope.
Agnostic means you believe there is no way to know for sure one way or the other.
You didn't answer my questions and i think we both know why.
But perhaps it was just an oversight. Do please answer them directly this time, if you can.
1) Can you be a theist if you cannot honestly say "Yes, i believe in a god"?
2) Can an "agnostic" honestly say "Yes, i believe in a god"?
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@Pikachu Unfortunately cherry picking a definition from a dictionary that fits your agenda doesn't make you correct.
This second part is not valid from the position of philosophy. Just like theory in common usage and theory in a science lab are very different.
But you seem determined to completely invalidate the meaning of agnostic for an agenda so no real discussion is possible.
You talk about "nuance" which is hilarious because you want to reduce everything to a simplistic binary.
lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
This second part is not valid from the position of philosophy. Just like theory in common usage and theory in a science lab are very different.
But you seem determined to completely invalidate the meaning of agnostic for an agenda so no real discussion is possible.
You talk about "nuance" which is hilarious because you want to reduce everything to a simplistic binary.
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow
I've asked you a straight question. Do please show me the respect of giving me a straight answer.
For a final time:
1) Can you be a theist if you cannot honestly say "Yes, i believe in a god"?
2) Can an "agnostic" honestly say "Yes, i believe in a god"?
Feel free to make an argument to that effect. Simply asserting it is meaningless.
I've asked you a straight question. Do please show me the respect of giving me a straight answer.
For a final time:
1) Can you be a theist if you cannot honestly say "Yes, i believe in a god"?
2) Can an "agnostic" honestly say "Yes, i believe in a god"?
This second part is not valid from the position of philosophy.
Feel free to make an argument to that effect. Simply asserting it is meaningless.
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@Pikachu I have given you straight answers and all you have done is repeat yourself.
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow
I'm not interested in playing games so i'm only going to request that you meet me head on once more.
Please show me the respect of answering these two simple questions. If you choose not to then you choose to end the discussion.
One last try:
1) Can you be a theist if you cannot honestly say "Yes, i believe in a god"?
2) Can an "agnostic" honestly say "Yes, i believe in a god"?
I'm not interested in playing games so i'm only going to request that you meet me head on once more.
Please show me the respect of answering these two simple questions. If you choose not to then you choose to end the discussion.
One last try:
1) Can you be a theist if you cannot honestly say "Yes, i believe in a god"?
2) Can an "agnostic" honestly say "Yes, i believe in a god"?