PSA: There's no such thing as an "Agnostic". You are either a Theist or an Atheist. You either believe that a god exists or you don't. It's binary.
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CopperCicada · M
That's an oversimplification of the psychology of faith, and ontology.
From the side of psychology, an individual may be unable or unwilling to commit to a position for a variety of reasons. Not having an opinion may be more apt for an individual than asserting that God does not exist. That is a form of agnosticism.
And from the side of ontology, an individual may hold a position that the existence of God is ultimately unknowable. This might be based on epistemological grounds. That the deity is of such complexity or vastness or subtleness that it is impossible to know.
From the side of psychology, an individual may be unable or unwilling to commit to a position for a variety of reasons. Not having an opinion may be more apt for an individual than asserting that God does not exist. That is a form of agnosticism.
And from the side of ontology, an individual may hold a position that the existence of God is ultimately unknowable. This might be based on epistemological grounds. That the deity is of such complexity or vastness or subtleness that it is impossible to know.
@CopperCicada
While i agree there is nuance to the spectrum of belief, i maintain that this is a binary circumstance.
Unless your answer to "do you believe a god exists?" is "Yes" then you are not a theist. That "yes" can be followed by any number of qualifications but without it you cannot be a theist.
It doesn't matter if you're willing to commit. Unless you hold a belief that a god exists, you're an atheist of one kind or another.
While i agree there is nuance to the spectrum of belief, i maintain that this is a binary circumstance.
Unless your answer to "do you believe a god exists?" is "Yes" then you are not a theist. That "yes" can be followed by any number of qualifications but without it you cannot be a theist.
It doesn't matter if you're willing to commit. Unless you hold a belief that a god exists, you're an atheist of one kind or another.
CopperCicada · M
@Pikachu I think there's a deeper question here. Some logical sentences, or truth statements, are not expressible in certain formal syntaxes.
If you ask if 1/2 is rational or irrational, we can resort to definitions and make a proof. It's hard to stand outside the question and say *shrug* don't know, guess we'll never know, that question makes no sense.
Most of our empirical knowledge of the physical world is like that. I can answer whether a material has calcium in it, if a subatomic particle is charged or not, or if an animal is a mammal. There is no valid way of standing outside those questions.
But an existential question as to whether God exists, I would say is a different type of question. One can reject the entire question as being irrelevant or unanswerable. That's really at the heart of philosophical agnosticism.
A similar question would be to ask if there are invisible spirits that don't interact with matter or energy passing through this cafe right now. Well. If they don't interact with matter or energy, guess we'll never know one way or another, right? Ask if there are sheep running through the cafe-- that I can answer.
If you ask if 1/2 is rational or irrational, we can resort to definitions and make a proof. It's hard to stand outside the question and say *shrug* don't know, guess we'll never know, that question makes no sense.
Most of our empirical knowledge of the physical world is like that. I can answer whether a material has calcium in it, if a subatomic particle is charged or not, or if an animal is a mammal. There is no valid way of standing outside those questions.
But an existential question as to whether God exists, I would say is a different type of question. One can reject the entire question as being irrelevant or unanswerable. That's really at the heart of philosophical agnosticism.
A similar question would be to ask if there are invisible spirits that don't interact with matter or energy passing through this cafe right now. Well. If they don't interact with matter or energy, guess we'll never know one way or another, right? Ask if there are sheep running through the cafe-- that I can answer.
@CopperCicada
One certainly can...but how relevant or potentially answerable the question is, is not the deciding factor here.
Do you know if there are invisible spirits that don't interact with matter or energy? That is a gnostic/agnostic position. A position on knowledge or the ability to know.
Do you believe that there are invisible spirits that don't interact with matter or energy? That is a position of belief.
So when it comes to Theist vs Atheist it doesn't matter if you know ( or think you know) the answer and it doesn't matter whether you think the question is important or unanswerable. When it comes to being either one who holds a specific belief or one who does not hold that belief, all other considerations are peripheral.
One can reject the entire question as being irrelevant or unanswerable.
One certainly can...but how relevant or potentially answerable the question is, is not the deciding factor here.
Do you know if there are invisible spirits that don't interact with matter or energy? That is a gnostic/agnostic position. A position on knowledge or the ability to know.
Do you believe that there are invisible spirits that don't interact with matter or energy? That is a position of belief.
So when it comes to Theist vs Atheist it doesn't matter if you know ( or think you know) the answer and it doesn't matter whether you think the question is important or unanswerable. When it comes to being either one who holds a specific belief or one who does not hold that belief, all other considerations are peripheral.
CopperCicada · M
@Pikachu I guess we’ll have to disagree.
Forcing binary answers to potentially indeterminate questions is problematic. Fundamentally because it forces us to violate the syntax of our questions.
Forcing binary answers to potentially indeterminate questions is problematic. Fundamentally because it forces us to violate the syntax of our questions.
@CopperCicada
I think the syntax of the Theist/Atheist question is what makes it binary.
But yes, we can agree to disagree✌️
I think the syntax of the Theist/Atheist question is what makes it binary.
But yes, we can agree to disagree✌️
CopperCicada · M
@Pikachu Said in another way, in some philosophical systems asking “does God exist” is like asking a mathematician “is pi blue”. It’s a non-sentence, a non-question. Thus philosophical agnosticism.
@CopperCicada
lol we already agreed to disagree, let's not keep pushing the discussion into deeper esoterism 😉
lol we already agreed to disagree, let's not keep pushing the discussion into deeper esoterism 😉
CopperCicada · M
@Pikachu Sorry. Wasn’t trying to be esoteric. Really just making a point from formal logic. It’s possible to have sentences that are indeterminate within a syntax. I would say for most materialists metaphysical statements are that way.