Quran verse !

@Kwek00
You made a great commentary and here is the reply.

“Doesn't that chapter start by establishing that what is in the books is true. Not because of any evidence, not because of any reason,... but just because it says it is?”
^
What is wrong with God establishing that the book he revealed is the truth ?
Wether you want to accept it to be the truth or not that is completely something else.

and actually the Quran is a very self critical book
And uses reason in many places

That is why many verses end with “will they not understand “
And “will they not reflect “
Check verses :
4:82,10:31,13:3,16:17,,16:69,21:30 etc…
Endless verses really.

Actually God is against someone following the steps of their forefathers blindly (check 2:170 ) the first word that was revealed in the Quran was “read “ not “believe “

“They will not be punished after they deny “

Not at all , the Islamic belief guarantees hell for Muslims who do evil especially the big sins
or if the evil scale is heavier than good on the day of judgment.

I never said that verse is only about extremists
But I said it fit their description as they believe theyr making peace when it’s the opposite
Do not put words in my mouth kindly.

@Islamreligion Being critical and also being dogmatic about the same toppic that you should be critical about. Is an oxymoron.

The self-reflection that the kuran might offer, doesn't cover it's dogmatic foundation. Because once you question that, then you get labeled with all the titles that you find in the 2nd chapter. Because you just can't criticize the dogmatic idea that God is real and that this specific book will tell you what God wants.

Pretending that the Kuran allows for a lot of critical thinking about these foundations that it is builds its faith (faith, not reason) on... is an illusion. Just like it says that people are the peace-makers, when later on the same peace-makers are conquesting through the middle east and establish an empire. These ideas may make the followers feel good about themselves, but it doesn't resemble any of their actions.

@Kwek00 the Quran is filled with verses of God telling mankind to reflect to use their intellect etc..
and stories of prophets debating their people
It’s only “despite” of that people are condemned by God for their disbelief.

That is why in Islam we believe non Muslims who the message of Islam never reached them will not go to hell.

so saying it’s based on “blind belief” shows you have not read the Quran fully.

And there are countless of people from every corner of the world who convert to Islam on a annual basis by their intellect and research.
—-
We as Muslims are obligated by God to treat non Muslims justly and kindly it’s in the Quran because it's a test of our morals and if we don't it pushes non Muslims away from Islam
However ,
God has every right to condemn the disbelievers who have knowledge about Islam yet deny his worship and existence.
If there is a teacher ,
And one student respects him
And another does not
Will their teacher evaluation/commentary be the same ? Of course not. It would be unjust to do so.
Plus That ideology is almost in every religion not just Islam .
—
“when later on the same peace-makers are conquesting through the middle east and establish an empire. These ideas may make the followers feel good about themselves, but it doesn't resemble any of their actions.”

We don’t live in a Barbie world with all due respect.
Almost every country /kingdom today it didn’t exist in the beginning of time
History is all about an empire after another ruling over a land.
It’s how they rule is what we should discuss.

If the Muslims of Arabia didn’t conquer their nearby countries
Persia and the Roman Empire would have conquered Arabia.
Especially that many nearby countries condemned the Muslims and didn’t allow them to preach Islam.
And they would have persecuted the Muslims just like how the Christian Spaniards killed the Jews and Muslims and spared no body even the civilians when they took over Spain just bc theyr not Christians
However if we look at history
All Muslim conquests especially in the beginning of Islamic history did not kill civilians bc of difference of religions nor destroyed churches etc
We see that when Muslims took over Palestine Egypt Spain (Andalus ) etc
The Muslims were even the minority for a long time over the lands they ruled because there were no forced conversions into Islam and that is documented in historical records.

Just bc we have some terrorist groups funded by the west for proxy wars in our 21t century which many Muslims fight against and denounce
Or one or two bad rules in history or today
Doesn’t mean that is Islam
Focus by judging Islam by its teachings not that person and that group

@Kwek00
And about “ Muslims feeling Good about themselves.”
Why would not god be pleased with those who believe in him and why shouldn’t they feel good?
However ,
Them being “Muslims” is not enough for them to go to heaven and avoid hell.
That is why almost every verse that speaks about heaven
says “those who believe “ include “and do good”
2:25,2:82,2:277,3:57,4:57,4:122,4:173,5:9,7:42,10:4 etc..theyr endless

In Islamic belief , faith with evil will not take you to heaven ( because it’s contradicting their “belief “)
And goodness without belief will not take you to heaven( because the worst action in the eyes of God is disbelief in him)

The idea that only “non Muslims “ can go to hell is incorrect.

@Islamreligion

You quiet honestly just need to read the 1st and 2nd chapter. That's all you need to show that it's blind belief. 🤷‍♂️

The discussion that happen, are only within the framework that they are allowed to take place. And that framework is set out in the 1st chapter of the Kuran. Everything outside that framework is apostasy and pretty much explained in chapter 2. Well... explained is actually a big word, it's labeled by decree.

But hey, the day you can proof your God excists, you can come back and proof me wrong. But as long as you can't do that, you believe out of blind faith not because you have a reason too.

Barbie doesn't really tell herself that she is a peacemaker when she runs through territory and forges and empire. That's the diffrence. I have no issue with conquerers that portray themselves as such, I have issues with hypocrits that chop of peoples heads and still portray themselves as benevolent peacefull human beings.

I also don't care what other people do. If you label yourself peacefull, you should peacefull. You just can't have your cake and eat it too.

If you read the 2nd chapter of the Kuran, and you still wonder why there is so much antagonism towards unbelievers and opstates, then you clearly didn't get the message. Extremism doesn't "just appear", it's embedded in the teachings. Some people just act like it, others don't. Pretending that this is the fault of "the west" or "proxy wars" or what ever other excuse anyone can come up with, are clearly people that aren't critical of the basic text that these people believe in while they are acting out violence. It's just being willfully ignorant.

If you want a good reason why unbelievers dislike religions, you just need to read the 2nd chapter of the Kuran. Just like you can read Exodus 23:20-33. Religions at their core are dogmatic and in their own nativist and thus they generate violence and/or oppression towards the outgroup. Because these people are corrupt and will spread corruption... which pretty much means, they will question your dogmas as any critic should and the answer for this "corruption" is opression and violence.

@Islamreligion

You need to proof that there is a God first.
If there is no God, then maybe I'm right, and someone that wanted to forge a following to do what ever his/her megalomaniac character wanted to achieve put those verses in there so that his/her followings will feel better about themselves. It's just a way to generate a positive self-image. It replaces the old identity with a new one, and that new one needs to be acceptable. And it's way more acceptable if it sounds good.

That's also why you have this:


Because the really good followers, are the ones that trully submit. You have to go all the way to fall into the grace of the leader and be promised a good place in Heaven or be tortured for eternity. It's just another way to bind a following to a leader that has big plans and visions of destiny.

Also "do good" is an abstract. If someone can perceive himself as a peace-maker while also being a conquerer, I can only imagine what "good" means in practise.

@Kwek00
Dear kwek00 I’ll break my answers in several points.

1/The verse in my post (2:11-12)
Is not only about non Muslims as you claim. It includes the hypocrite Muslims.
Because the verse before it says clearly :
2:8
{And there are some who say, “We believe in Allah and the Last Day,” yet they are not ˹true˺ believers.}

Which include the terrorist Muslims.they say theyr true believers when they are not.

2/ the verse (2:11-12)
Is not a general rule about disbelievers.
The Quran does not say that
Every non Muslim is evil and bad mannered.

Actually the Quran says about Christians and Jews :
Ali 'Imran - Verse 75_76
{There are some among the People of the Book who, if entrusted with a stack of gold, will readily return it. Yet there are others who, if entrusted with a single coin, will not repay it unless you constantly demand it. This is because they say, “We are not accountable for ˹exploiting˺ the Gentiles.”And ˹so˺ they attribute lies to Allah knowingly.
Absolutely! Those who honour their trusts and shun evil—surely Allah loves those who are mindful ˹of Him˺.}
^
God here clearly saying that there are some good mannered Christians /Jews and bad mannered Jews /Christians. This verse applies to Muslims too.

Moreover, the Quran says about non Muslims in general of all religions :
Al-Kahf - Verse 103-105
{
Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Shall we inform you of who will lose the most deeds?
˹They are˺ those whose efforts are in vain in this worldly life, while they think they are doing good!”
It is they who reject the signs of their Lord and their meeting with Him, rendering their deeds void, so We will not give their deeds any weight on Judgment Day.}

^
So God does say that many non Muslims do great efforts and deeds of goodness
However these actions/deeds will not benefit them because they disbelieved in God.

Just like belief in Islam alone will not take you to heaven , you need actions.
To go to heaven belief &deeds are required not one without the other.

Many Muslims fail in the actions part
While many non Muslims fail in the belief part or both
And there are many of those with are both as much as they can.
So islam is not as you claim. it does not say everyone who is not Muslim are evil mean etc.

3/“ Because the really good followers, are the ones that trully submit. You have to go all the way to fall into the grace of the leader and be promised a good place in Heaven ”

That might be in Christianity definitely not in Islam.
——-

4/
“You quiet honestly just need to read the 1st and 2nd chapter. That's all you need to show that it's blind belief. 🤷‍♂️“

1/ the first chapter is surah Fatiha , it’s a 7 verses of Muslim prayer
what is wrong with it ?
It’s literally recited by those who are already Muslim.
And there is even reflection in that chapter
It says for instance “lord of the worlds “
If it said “ lord of the Arabs / Arabia “
You could say “oh okay then this must be a false religion.”
But since it doesn’t , That should be a purpose to continue reading and learning not the opposite.

Actually this chapter refutes your claim
You said Muslims feeling good all about themselves when
surah Fatiha ends with muslims praying for guidance. Meaning even Muslims should be cautious and constantly ask for guidance and to pray to be firm on the right path.

2/ Second chapter is chapter baqara
This chapter has a historical background you need to check before you jump into conclusions.
Moreover ,
The surah encompasses a variety of topics to reflect upon.
From debate especially with Jews since part of it was revealed in Medina where Muslims and Jews lived door to door , prophet stories , some Islamic law, more about the God of Islam etc….

And definitely not enough.
You need to read the Quran fully especially with knowing background.

It’s like reading only the end of the story of Little Red Riding Hood and saying how evil they killed the wolf !
Although if you read it fully you’d know they did it in self defense.

@Kwek00
“Also "do good" is an abstract. If someone can perceive himself as a peace-maker while also being a conquerer, I can only imagine what "good" means in practise.”
—-
All countries today
Once upon a time a leader took reign of it.
Every country with no exception.
Not every ruler who takes control over a land is bad.

Islam is a practical religion
It encourages peace treaties
Mohammed made peace treaties with non Muslim tribes until they broke it and waged war.

And also Islam provide ethical code for when a Muslim decides to rule over a land.
Some of them are
No killing women , kids , those who don’t fight ,animals , no destroying buildings etc..

The earth is everyone’s place
In Islam a specific person of a specific color doesn’t need to rule over a specific people. People of all races constantly migrated on earth.

Before Muslims took over Spain it was living in dark ages but when Muslims took over and named it (Andalus )
They did not enforce Islam, they improved life conditions , economy , and produced the best scientists in history and Muslims and people of other religions lived door to door.

Actually a non Muslim noble prize winner said:

"We have 30 books left behind from Muslim Andalusia, so that we could split the atom. If a half of the one million burned books could survive, we would already travel between galaxies in space." - Pierre Curie [1903 Nobel Prize in Physics Winner]

Then Christians came and took it from the Muslims on a platter of Gold and slaughtered everyone who refused Christianity
(Spanish Inquisition )

I

@Islamreligion

Would you consider muslims that are hypocrites muslims? Because if the answer is no... then you kinda figured out what I meant. People that pretend to be something, ussually aren't what they are pretending. Else pretending isn't nescessary.



When in chapter 2 the Kuran refers to "they", the kuran is talking about:

"2:6 As for those who disbelieve—it is the same for them, whether you have warned them, or have not warned them—they do not believe."

"They" is specifically about people that disbelieve. Those outside the circle of believers. There is no diffrenciation here. You can make up this idea that they aren't talking about ALL disbelievers, however, the kuran will not back you up here. "They" are all those that aren't muslim.

And then... from this verse onwards in that chapter, the kuran poisons the well and learns his followers how bad these people are. And that you shouldn't listen to them.

I also love that it says:

"2:9 They seek to deceive God and those who believe, but they deceive none but themselves, though they are not aware."

It's nice that disbelievers can have good manners... but they are still deceivers even though thye don't know. They are troublemakers. And in times that muslims found a theocratic form of governement, they will be shunned from power because they are unclean.



It's kinda strange that the part that refutes my claim, turns back to exactly what I'm talking about. Because the Muslim here prays for guidance. He/She stays devoted to the faith. A faith explained in a couple of texts, and those texts tell those people how to be "good people". And these parts are sometimes really explicit, as in calling someone a "peace-maker" without them actually having made peace. It's just label that makes people feel good about the identity (in this case muslim) that they will be adopting. Because once a devoted muslim they will become the "peace-makers" for what ever reason.

When I say "make people feel good about themselves" I mean linking "virtues" to a person... without them having to have those virtues in the first place. Without them doing any effort for it. They are just good because the doctrine that they follow will say that they are good because they subjugate themselves to the orthodoxy.




Sure, but it also poisons the well. It teaches you that those that don't believe are wrong without telling you why they are wrong. It makes discussions quasi impossible. And that's the aim, because it stops critical thinking and questioning of the dogmatic foundations of it's faith. It tells you before the questions are asked, that you shouldn't question at all. And that brings us to the 1st chapter.

1. In the name of God, the Gracious, the Merciful.

2. Praise be to God, Lord of the Worlds.

3. The Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.

4. Master of the Day of Judgment.

5. It is You we worship, and upon You we call for help.

6. Guide us to the straight path.

7. The path of those You have blessed, not of those against whom there is anger, nor of those who are misguided.

This particulair path, is just a confession of faith. People that recite this are just saying that all these points are true. It's the foundation of the believe the system. It says that:

1. There is a God (no evidence needed)
2. That God is the only thing we worship and call for help for (no evidence needed)
3. This God guides us to the straight path, it's the blessed path of the guided (in opposition to the misguided, no evidence needed)

These things have to be embraced, without questioning. Because if they don't well... then all the rest makes no sense. 🤷‍♂️ It is, dogmatic because it excists by decree without evidence and it can't be questioned! And if you question it, you'll fall into the bracket that is set up in chapter 2. Where all the people are that deceiving but aren't even aware that they are doing it. Because that's what cults do, they cut of people from the rest and demand submission. There is nothing new here.


There is a poem that is called "The White Mans' Burden" by Kipling. You might want to look it up someday, because that's how Europeans felt better about their imperialism and colonisation. I guess at some point the Muslims' had a burden too. Good for the north of Spain, that they took care about the people there. Very nice of them.

Yes, Christians have their own problems... but in the abstract, they are often very similair with those of other religions.

@Kwek00
You said :

This particulair path, is just a confession of faith. People that recite this are just saying that all these points are true. It's the foundation of the believe the system.
^
Of course ! This prayer is said by people who are ALREADY MUSLIMS.
Who became Muslim by reason and choice ALREADY.

—-
"Would you consider muslims that are hypocrites muslims? Because if the answer is no... then you kinda figured out what I meant. People that pretend to be something, ussually aren't what they are pretending. Else pretending isn't nescessary."

I don’t consider terrorists who claim to be
Muslims , to be Muslims
because they befit this description
Al-Baqarah - Verse 8-13
{And there are some who say, “We believe in Allah and the Last Day,” yet they are not ˹true˺ believers.
There is sickness in their hearts, and Allah ˹only˺ lets their sickness increase. They will suffer a painful punishment for their lies.
When they are told, “Do not spread corruption in the land,” they reply, “We are only peace-makers!” Indeed, it is they who are the corruptors, but they fail to perceive it.}

First of all be mindful of the “some” in the beginning.
Second of all,
That is a perfect description of those so called Muslims who are terrorists.
—-
You said :
When in chapter 2 the Kuran refers to "they", the kuran is talking about:

"2:6 As for those who disbelieve—it is the same for them, whether you have warned them, or have not warned them—they do not believe."
^

That is not true. the Quran is filled with verses telling prophet Mohammed and the Muslims to preach Islam to non Muslims especially kindly and with wisdom.
That verse is not a generalization
Al-Baqarah - Verse 6
means that the people who God knows their intention already decreed for them
That they will never be Muslims
Similarly the same message is repeated in the Quran in a different way ( 10:96-97)

those who persist in denial and God knows their intention and decreed their state of belief , it is the same whether prophet Mohammed warns them or not they will never believe.
Especially that prophet Mohammed used to over burden himself going to the same non Muslim over and over with all reason and signs but they’d still not believe
That is why God says in the Quran to prophet Mohammed :
18:6-7 , 35:8,80:5-12
Etc..
God could have made everyone a Muslim but where is the test? That is why there are forever people who will never be Muslim.


——
You said :
Sure, but it also poisons the well. It teaches you that those that don't believe are wrong without telling you why they are wrong.
^
Sir , You are going around in circles and circles when I already answered how that point is wrong.
The Quran has many verses of God debating people and reminding people and telling people to reflect it’s actually most of what the Quran is about.
I’m sorry but I won’t re answer what I already answered.
—-
You said
“There is a God (no evidence needed)”

You cannot see gravity yet by observing surroundings we did come to that conclusion

Same with the belief in God.
He sent down revelation and messengers
And everything around us is a sign
If you choose to not believe , then please feel free to do so. But many daily choose to believe in that and choose Islam over atheism or any other religion. Annual people choose to convert to islam

——
……”because that's how Europeans felt better about their imperialism and colonisation. I guess at some point the Muslims' had a burden too. Good for the north of Spain, that they took care about the people there. Very nice of them.”
Again every land in our modern day and every ruler today
Came to that point because they took control over that territory at some point in history. Wether from japan to usa.
It’s a fact with or without religious influence.
It’s how you take it and how you rule over it is what Islam teaches us and all the ethics.
again it’s a realistic practical religion.
Moreover , islam encourages peace treaties and treaty cannot be broken unless the other part does.
And that what prophet Mohammed did
He honored the treaties
until they broke the treaties
You can look the biography up

@Islamreligion

Again... where is the reason?


Yes, that's my point. Thank you.
And thus:



... the hypocrite muslims are not muslims. And then this entire thing is about non-muslims. That's my point.


Yes and it's the description for all people that fall outside the "muslim" category. It works for everyone that isn't muslim. It's not confined to "so called muslims who are terrorists", you may like to talk particulairly about that sentence. But when I read the second chapter, I'm very aware that I'm part of "they" too. It's pretty much rubbed in my face in that chapter. Because the chapter is antagonistic. It has a clear objective, and that's to poison the well and discredit non-believers in favor of believers that think that they are "reasonable" while in practise they are embrasing a dogmatic believe system. And thus people like myself will react to that, but people that form a cult following don't like that. So they have to discredit critics before there is actual criticism. Because every sane person that introduces a dogma in their thinking, know that they will be called out for it.



Only if your God is real... and where is the proof for that?
Critical thinking kinda goes out of the window here, we just have to accept that the truth is simply revealed in this old document that is clearly written with a political goal. Namely, to follow a tight cult/sect group of people around a leader who pretends that he's chosen by God. Which is gives him some form of legitamacy. However, we can't proof that this God excists or that he even was chosen by God. Just like a lot of other figures in history, this man is probably a fraud that craved power. There are other leaders that have done the same thing, if all their Gods were real, we would have a real mess in our pantheon right now.



People that question the first part of the Kuran after being part of the muslim flock, they get sentenced to death in a lot of countries with laws made by muslims. And if we are going to look at the kuran verses, it kinda supports the idea that these people are not welcome.

3:90 But those who reject Faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of Faith, – never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray.

9:66 Make ye no excuses: ye have rejected Faith after ye had accepted it. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others amongst you, for that they are in sin.

16:106 He who disbelieves in Allah after his having believed, not he who is compelled while his heart is at rest on account of faith, but he who opens (his) breast to disbelief-- on these is the wrath of Allah, and they shall have a grievous chastisement.

88:22-24 You are not ˹there˺ to compel them ˹to believe˺, But whoever turns away, persisting in disbelief, then Allah will inflict upon them the major punishment.

9:11-12 But if they repent, perform prayer, and pay alms-tax, then they are your brothers in faith. This is how We make the revelations clear for people of knowledge. But if they break their oaths after making a pledge and attack your faith, [b]then fight the champions of disbelief—who never honour their oaths—so perhaps they will desist.[/b]

And the Hadith isn't much better.


So again... we have a believe system with a dogmatic foundation. And once people discuss this dogmatic foundation and doubt it and ask for proof... well they will be apostates and no longer have a place amongs the muslim poppulation. Because they will be shunned for being critical.

Because the kuran only allows discussion as long as this discussion doesn't question it's validity. Which is exactly my point, that there is only a framework in which discussion can be had. And if you color outside those lines, you'll be punished. Because one just doesn't question the validity of the scripture.



There was still a proof needed to accept the concept of gravity and how it functions. We might have an understanding that apples fall to the ground, but what it actually meant came much later when someone proofed it and labeled it.

This is not the case with God.
People that look around in fascination and go "this is God". Well, they might miss the proof for Gravity, by saying "thus God". That's pretty much what previous generations of humans did. Lightning can be observed, thus God. Volcanoes erupt thus God. Tsunami hits the shore, thus God. But now many years later we know Lightning comes from friction and polarisation, that we have tectonic plates and a hot molten core at the center of the earth doing all kinds of things and occasionaly creating volcanoes and tsunamis. The "Thus God" part, kinda leaves reasoning the moment we start actually researching and discovering. Saying things like: we can observe thus God... well, that idea isn't nescessary anymore, because we grew up as a society and got a lot smarter. However, some people still cling to God for all kinds of explanations, and yet after all this time they never proofed God is real. But we did proof how lightning works, how volcanoes work, how tsunamis come into excistence. "Thus God" is a flawed instrument and it proofs absolutely nothing.


Oh, and my point stays... you can't say you are a peace-maker and also have violent conquest. No matter what other countries did, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

@Kwek00
Everything you said in the beginning I already answered if you don’t like my answer then you are more than free to hold onto your opinions

As for the last new part,
there is no such thing as “violent “ conquest in the teachings of Islam.
Im talking about teachings by the way not history.
Plus , not every “violence” is bad.
When we see movies and shows
Of heros beating evil
Isn’t that violence ? But it is justified and praised.

@Islamreligion Our "heroes" in movies ussually fight against a form of injustice. They ussualy don't establish empires by means of violence conquest. That's the diffrence. Superman doesn't go: "I'm the Peace-Maker" and then conquers the middle east and half of Spain by fighting, slaughtering and subjugating people that liver there. That just doesn't happen... and if it happened, I would also say that Superman is a bit of a hypocrit because being the "peace-maker" and going on a violent power trip... just aren't compatible.

You can of course call everything an opinion... but the fact remains that the evidence for God, any God, is severly lacking. And thus all religions base themselves on a dogmatic idea that they embrace and don't question. No matter how much you say that the Kuran pushes critical thinking, in the face of the big question: "Is this text valid" the Kuran doesn't allow criticism. Espescially from people within the flock. Because they will be branded heretics and will be persecuted. The idea of criticism, is severly narrowed because the dogma has to be maintained. You just can't have your cake and eat it too.

@Kwek00
“Our "heroes" in movies ussually fight against a form of injustice. They ussualy don't establish empires by means of violence conquest.”

1/ the earth is for all humans.
Your notion that a specific land should be for a specific race is biased
Plus ,
since the beginning of time people migrated and a ruler came after the other and divided lands. Literally No country /race/ruling family today is where it was or how it was since the beginning of human race . Give me one example.
And
We have many shows of heroes fighting an army to free land of i unjust ruler.
What is more unjust than a ruler refusing to let Islam spread in their land or say will persecute Muslims ?
That what happened when prophet Mohammed sent a letter to nearby countries leaders.
Plus during the life of prophet Mohammed the only thing he did was get his home back in Mecca

Al-Haj - Verse 39
{
Permission ˹to fight back˺ is ˹hereby˺ granted to those being fought, for they have been wronged.And Allah is truly Most Capable of helping them ˹prevail˺.}
And even that was done peacefully with no battle. The battles that happening during the life of prophet Mohammed were initiated by the non Muslims of Mecca and nearby tribes against Mohammed.

Everything else is history.
Plus historically speaking ,
Arabia was surrounded by Persian empire and Roman Empire each violent about their beliefs
And would have conquered Arabia and erased Muslims off the face of the earth and it was happening
Wether the Muslims sat down and did nothing or did something it would have led to that anyways .
Plus in battle no killing of civilians no destruction no killing of animals etc no killing of soldiers who give up or leave
How is that violent ? If anything it’s the most merciful doctrine that ever existed


As for “ the Kuran doesn't allow criticism”
Lol although it mentions the insults of non Muslims to prophet Mohammed.
And mentions things like
don’t think they understand
Don’t they reflect
Don’t they see
Etc
I wonder how much of the Quran you actually read

@Islamreligion

That's what you got out of this conversation? Fuck me. 🤦‍♂️
this was about labeling oneself with "peace-makers", while also going on violent conquest to establish an empire. That's what this was about me. But hey, if this is becoming to difficult for you... then maybe it's better to stop.


Considering that Islam is a political tool... I understand why political leaders were afraid to let another cult with claims that they can't proof but just need to be accepted, enter their border. I totally get that.


What does this even mean? This isn't argument, this is just willfully being hazy in the hope that the other just goes: "okay then". This makes no sense at all.

@Kwek00

“And thus all religions base themselves on a dogmatic idea that they embrace and don't question”

The majority of Muslims during the time of prophet Mohammed didn’t convert until they sat down and questioned him.

And many people yearly “question “ and choose it and convert to Islam.

There are still people who deny the earth to be spherical
What I’m trying to illustrate here anyone can deny anything even with science with their own science.

The perfect notion of God in Islam that doesn’t exist in any other religion as far as I have researched.
The science in Quran that preceded human discoveries.
The things that prophet Mohammed predicted and came true.
The challenge in the Quran to produce something like it and yet no one did
Etc..

It’s not about evidence it’s about doing your own research and believing this is from God.
Just like without gravity we came after research to believe in it.
Saying I want to see God to believe in God
Where is the test of belief anymore ?
Like saying I want to see the key answer of my test before I take the test.
You will see God , when it’s too late.

@Kwek00 lol your comment didn’t answer the key points I made.
And Islam is not a political Tool but could be used in that way

in the time of prophet Mohammed when he was alive it wasn’t

When a Muslim does something
Do we associate everything with Islam since he is a Muslim ? No. Not everything a Muslim does /did is part of Islam.

Plus many countries like Indonesia (today the country with most Muslim population) converted by well mannered Muslim traders
So did the Maldives and many others

@Islamreligion

Questioned him? You mean followed a charismatic leader. A law giver that claimed that he was ordained by God himself. That's not a discussion, that's listening to a preach, and you can accept it or you don't. Because there is no proof for the claims that are the foundation of the believe the system.

There are 100s of cults out there, of people that do the same thing. They find some charismatic type that says things that they like to hear, and they devote themselves to that doctrine. This joke has been playing out for centuries, you can find an example in everyplace where you find a religion.


This is simply not true. You are comparing something that isn't accepted in science and then labeling it science so you can make a mockery of science. But anyone that works with the scientific method will explain to you that you are wrong and you are poisoning the well.


It's nice that Quran promotes human discoveries... sadly though, my biggest argument still stands. That at the root of the text there lies a dogma. Something that muslims can't proof, and just accept. And thus they are dogmatic. And pretending that this is not the case, is just lieing to yourself. If Muslims really had the truth, if they had evidence for their claims, their wouldn't be a discussion except for those that literally throw out facts in favor of their own fantasies. Sadly though, muslims are part of the segment of the poppulation that actually sin against that idea. They do throw out ideas to save their own fantasies, because they are incapable of of tackling the fundamental argument exactly because of their lack evidence.



I rest my case. Exactly, it's baout believing in God. Not knowing that he's there, just believing that you know. That's what it's about. Thank you so much, that's my entire argument.




That's the biggest trap there is. If you embrace this, you can literally believe in anything, and see it as a test of faith. It would seriously dumbdown humanity.

@Islamreligion

He literally became the political figure of an entire religious group... What are you talking about?

@Kwek00
“What does this even mean? This isn't argument, this is just willfully being hazy in the hope that the other just goes: "okay then". This makes no sense at all.”

You said Quran doesn’t allow people to question themselves and I said it does because it constantly does , it if God is having a conversation with the reader
one example of many :


^ Verse 30 , is a nutshell of the modern day theory of how our vast world came into existence.
The Arabic word Ratqan used in the text hints at darkness and closed up mass.

Verse 32 , it is a fact that the sky protects us from dangerous rays from the sun.

Verse 33 , a man from Arabia over 1400 years ago couldn’t have known that the moon and the sun move in an orbit. especially the sun moving
It was for a long time believed that the sun is stationary and planets move around it until recently.

—

“Considering that Islam is a political tool... I understand why political leaders were afraid to let another cult with claims that they can't proof but just need to be accepted, enter their border. I totally get that. “

So you were saying if someone endangers you and you know they want to conquer you
and they attacks you OR persecute you in their lands just bc of belief
you should sit down and let yourself and your people get wiped out and persecuted ?

We see this in our modern day
Genocide of the Palestinians and the world is quiet
The Muslims of China detained
Some European countries enforcing penalties on hijab/niqab
Even in the beginning of Islam when the pagans wanted to kill Mohammed and all the Muslims
If the Muslim nation was weak and allowed the persecution no Muslim would have remained.

—-

@Kwek00
“He literally became the political figure of an entire religious group... What are you talking about?”

He is a prophet who preached God’s words to mankind.
He literally gained nothing for this worldly life I would love to know what he gained
As he lived poor and died poor and didn’t let his prophethood treat people less and differently or as servants.
And
He denied the most beautiful women and gold and kingdom which was offered to him by the pagan Arabs if he was willing to stop spreading Islam and he lived most of his life in torture and persecution because of what he preached no sane person would do that.
He was among drunkards
And preached not to drink
etc etc etc
Everything the majority wanted /did
He went against
No person with political interest would make the worldly gain he wants a hard path for himself

@Kwek00
As for more information about
Your points of conquest etc..
Id like you to look up a channel on youtube called “one message foundation “
The sheik uthman explain it perfectly

Have a great day

@Islamreligion Your entire Quran part you copy pasted doesn't question anything. They just make an argument out of something that they don't understand. It's literally: "Lighting thus God". I talked about this before, this is just trickery. People use it today too, there are demagogues out there that amaze their audience with ideas that their audience have no clue about, and then go: "thus <Idea that I want you to believe>." It's nothing but rhetorical strategy.


If I was a political leader at that time, I would be a traditional leader. Because these liberal ideas that you use about "freedom of believes" or "freedom of speech" didn't excist. To protect my traditional rule, I need to protect myself from believe systems that can undermine my political position. And Islam is a thread, so yeah, I do understand that political leaders defended themselves against cults and religions that could undermine their authority. But those political leaders aren't calling themselves "peace-makers" in this conversation. The Quran literally says that muslims are "peace-makers", but when you look at the early history of Islam... that clearly wasn't the case.

When it comes to the Palestinian conflict... the hatred flows both ways. There are no "good guys" in that story. What China is doing is terrible, and it's been called out but not enough imo. But that's the sad truth with nucleair big powers, that's they whipe their ass with international agreements. And yes, the Hijab conversation lives here too, because Xenophobia is a thing and a segment of the people are aware that Islam is a political tool which will undermine their hegemony. This is a similair story to the traditional warlords from 700 AD, sadly this takes place in a liberal framework, and calling out the hypocrisy is totally okay for me. But pretending that Mohammed was just creating and forging an empire out of self-defense, is kinda dumb.

*When it comes to the Palestinian conflict... the hatred flows both ways. There are no "good guys" in that story.*
Of course there are bad ppl from each side.
But I’m talking government wise.
When Muslims took over in the past.
No church was destroyed , no one was forced to convert , they all lived in peace etc
Even in Palestinian areas today there are chuches and Muslims and Christians door to door.
The thing is you want the wronged to stay silent. And for the bad people to stop what they were doing by their own.
It doesn’t work that way. You need to stand up against injustice without involving the innocent.

“And yes, the Hijab conversation lives here too, because Xenophobia is a thing and a segment of the people are aware that Islam is a political tool which will undermine their hegemony”
the fact a piece of garment on the head threatens you and such countries is fascinating. Majority of Muslim women are proud wearing it And there is no Islamic punishment for a woman who decides not to wear it as for countries who did/does and turned it into political matter that is on them NOT Islam
@Kwek00 Lighting thus God?
I never said such thing.
The verses I showed explain the universe in a scientific way.
Things a man from 1400 years ago couldn’t have known if it wasn’t from God.
The Big Bang, how the sun moves in an orbit etc..
information which preceded modern scientific discoveries and yet match them.
And
Just because there is a scientific process for something doesn’t automatically
mean that there is no God.
Just like how someone invented the Apple phone but we can explain its functions in a physical chemical mathematical way and from a programming languages prospective.

And

Mohammed didn’t create an empire , he preached a faith .
The Muslims were scattered across the lands and has different rulers.

And even if it was an empire or whatever you wish to call it
he did not benefit anything
He was heavily poor and died poor donating everything he had go look it up. He didn’t even use this status. when he was walking through the desert with his companion they switched places on the camel since there was only one. He didnt say Im a prophet I can’t walk. Although his companion urged him to.
We see this humbleness in different places.
He lived humbly and lived a very poor life to the extent many reported saying
No cooking fire would lit at his home
which all you could look up.

And what is forging empire about opening Mecca?
Mecca is his home.
The Muslims were killed and persecuted in it that they had to flee to Medina
Leaving behind their families businesses etc..
They have more than a right to get back to those families properties businesses etc
They were the ones wronged.
Especially that there homes were stolen
And when Muslims came to Mecca
It was PEACEFUL
No battle and prophet forgave all and let them go
Go look up how the Muslims took over mecca


This conversation so far is not going anywhere.
You are free to hold onto your opinion
Like I’ll do mine.
As I said if you want better and detailed answers check a YouTube channel
Called “one message foundation “


Goodbye