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Is gender over?

Poll - Total Votes: 22
Yes (explain in comments)
No (explain in comments)
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Is gender on the way out? Here in Canada, if you go back 100 years, whether you were categorized male or female totally determined how you could dress, what kind of job/career you could have, who you could marry (other gender only), whether you could have children (one parent of each gender needed), and a whole lot of people's expectations of you. And a lot of this was enshrined in law and/or near-universal social standards.

Today the law is opposed to distinctions between men and women, other gender possibilities are recognized, and the social standards are much looser. A prof of mine was claiming that in another 20 years what gender you are will be no more significant than what colour eyes you have. Some people will still prefer blue eyes or brown eyes (or green or hazel) and some have eclectic tastes, but it won't limit or shape your life choices in any way. What do you think?

This is one of my questions in my field of research, so reading your answers counts as studying, so give me lots of answers!! :)
SW-User
Carpediem, I understand. I'm not trying to get into a big debate either. It does get tiring to argue on the big current event topics.
My reply is just about semantics. Gender IS behavior and standards based on a person's sex and what society decides is appropriate for each one. Sex is based on your DNA, so even after a surgery, a person who was male still has the Y chromosome and a person who was female still lacks it. That can't change. Not saying I agree or disagree when it comes to transgender topics but, like I said, just semantics.
Cinnamon · 31-35, F
TheCoolestCat which is weird. Cause I can wear jeans and a button-down shirt, which once upon a time would have been 100% man's clothes, and nobody laughs (some people whistle, but that's another story ;) ) So why is the thought of you wearing a dress, still unusual?
carpediem · 61-69, M
Gender is biological. As much as society want to pretend it doesn't exist, it does and always will.
Adaydreambeliever · 56-60, F
I think it will take a lot, lot longer than 20 years.. i think we will see improvements for sure and less discrimination against people in terms of gender.. BUT there is still so much everyday sexism and discrimination, often without logic, that most of us just accept most of it without question... for instance women are still discriminated against in terms of top jobs JUST because they are women... uni students were asked to choose the best candidate for a certain job.. the same credentials were used but one was given a male name and one a female... needless to say men and women discriminated in favour of men getting the job.. .they thought or perceived him to be the better candidate even when all things were equal in terms of qualifications and experience.. Women were also marked down for the same qualities that made men more likely to get the job.. the same trait such as "i enjoy making all the decisions" was seen as a good thing in men but a bad thing in women... so for the same attribute women were facing discrimination...
For me as a normal person... i see so much sexism. everyday sexism as in that isnt intended to offend.. but is said without thought.. women accept it without question, (so used to it are we!) and men dish it out without even thinking it is offensive.. One example was... in a newsagent shop i bought a tv guide - i didnt see the price because it was hard to see and tucked away in the corner... When i learned the price and said i didnt want the item because it is too expensive.. the man behind the counter made the assumption that i was too ditzy to loook at the price... He truly wouldnt have said that to a man.. but thought it was ok to say to a woman... He meant no harm and was laughing- sigh.
SO many things women put up wth and so much so that they dont question or even think about what it means..
SW-User
Carpediem, your sex is biological. Gender is taught.
Highonheels · 51-55, M
No I agree with carpedium gender will always exsist and is technically chosen by god at the time of conception you are born biologically either male or female,very rarely their are those of course born as both but that is a very rare instance ,it is technilogical advancements and personal choice that allows an individual to choose to surgically become the opposite sex or I guess the politically correct term these days is transgender and their are those straight men like me that just like to dress the part but not actually become transgender. I personally wear dresses,tights and highheels in private because it relaxes me,for me it started as a way to help me better understand women but now I do it like I said too destress and relax because women's clothes to me are more comfortable than men's clothes and women have so many style,design and material choices.
mic11225 · 26-30, M
I'd like to think gender would become less of a deal but we will see. I think socially people are heading that way in America. Despite the massive news coverage of the opposite i think the fact that so many people are upset and oppose whenever state governments try to impose the traditional ideas of gender and their implications on its people says that there is a change happening. But I see no guarantee that such changes would continue. I'm more hopeful of this generation though than any one in the past because unlike the past we can actually expose ourselves to new people and new ideas easier than ever so theres really no excuse to be ignorant outside of willing yourself to be so.
Cinnamon · 31-35, F
@KatherineArch probably, but again the question is whether it will be more important than eye colour! The thread I just posted a link to assumes that if a woman creates an account as a male, or vice versa, they're pretending to be something fundamentally different from who they really are. Nobody would say that about someone with blue eyes who created a persona with brown eyes or vice versa. I do think it is possible that gender will become just as interesting but unimportant as eye colour, though we're not there yet.

I am still hoping to get an email from you with more of your story btw?
OpenlyHonestly · 31-35, F
Definitely not where I live. You can face gender-based discrimination in many fields. Most of it is aimed at women but men are not omitted. If you're a guy and you apply for a job as a waiter in certain bars or even as a shop-assistant with decorative items you might not get it. Why? Because "females appear nicer and communicate in more pleasant manner". (friend's experience).
Anyway, I think that the amount of sexism on the Internet proves that people in this world are far away from accepting each other as persons whose gender is irrelevant.
Highonheels · 51-55, M
Dear cinnamon I think that the clothes a person wears should be a matter of personal choice not so much based on societies demands I agree to an extent that gender in this day and age is considered more or less a personal decision based on how one defines oneself and as you have commented before that your sex is biological and to a point I somewhat agree with you but technically sex and gender is one in the same but these days gender is defined as how you feel but a man who surgically becomes a women is technically still a man biologically
Highonheels · 51-55, M
OK sludgefeast once and for all I am not a transvestite or transgender nor do I want to be I love being a man and doing manly things but I also like enjoying my feminine side when the mood strikes I see it as having the best of both worlds your perception is what it is and you don't even know me personally so you cannot truely define me as a person until you get to know me personally
michaelhh · 56-60, M
I like fashion freedom. Women can wear almost anything they like - from either side of the store - while men get laughed at, shunned, etc if they dare wear anything vaguely outside the social 'norm' for menswear. I wear heels most of the time. I've never had any comments, and most people don't even notice, but I know I get a few looks and smiles (and sniggers from teenage girls).
Cinnamon · 31-35, F
@KatherineArch you can message me at tsimringbulkes@gmail.com If you do, just mention it here and I'll check my inbox.

There is supposed to be a private message feature on this site soon, so we can use the little envelope icon at the top of the screen, but it is not working yet (leading to a great deal of intimacy and drama in public!)

I would love to know more of your story.
PlumBerries · 31-35, F
In 20 years gender will probably be wiped. Label wise anyway
MrsKatherineArch · 41-45, F
I think gender is learned/or relearned in my case. I was born with an intersex condition that was "corrected" when I was a teenager. Of course I was lucky to choose what was best for me. I think it is such a deeply personal thing, and there is not a one size fits all answer. I would message you my views and experiences but I have no idea if this site even has a messaging feature...
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SW-User
That's an interesting question. If the trend of gender equality and the need for non-binary descriptions continues, it only needs to be included in forms to determine how to address someone. If that is the only reason, I think it will only be a matter of time before people come up with a unisex pronoun though.
SW-User
I agree... It's natural social progression. In fact evolution may be steering us towards it...

Look back twenty or thirty years and the men were very 'manly', look around now and a hell of a let of men are becoming effeminate. Slight builds, lacking body hair, etc etc
Cinnamon · 31-35, F
@Quizling yes. And once you start studying history and different cultures it's even more obvious that what looks masculine or feminine in one time or place can be the exact opposite in another.
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MrsKatherineArch · 41-45, F
Since I have been both male and female, I don't think that gender is "over" by a long shot! I wish I could figure out how to message on here to expand on my experience and answer any questions
Cinnamon · 31-35, F
LSeule and Carpediem even physically things are more complicated. There are people born with penises who don't have Y chromosomes and people born with vaginas who do. "About 1 in 20,000 men has no Y chromosome, instead having 2 Xs. This means that in the United States there are about 7,500 men without a Y chromosome. The equivalent situation - females who have XY instead of XX chromosomes - can occur for a variety of reasons and overall is similar in frequency." Dr. Charmian Quigley quoted at Intersex Society of North America, http://www.isna.org/faq/y_chromosome.
Cinnamon · 31-35, F
@Plobey yes, and there already are a few unisex pronouns around. Most often I hear "they" used in the singular. I think that was already around informally before people became more aware of gender variety. There are also invented words like "ze" (although personally I find that one difficult because it sounds just like the German or Yiddish word for "she"). There are other languages that have never distinguished male and female in pronouns. English used to have a singular and plural "you" (thou / you) and that disappeared so the gender distinction could certainly disappear as well.
Highonheels · 51-55, M
I am not a transvestite sludgefeast you can read between the lines all you want I am a straight male I do not try to look like a women other than just simply wearing their clothes ,I don't wear wigs and makeup or earrings or anything like that but on accasion maybe some lipstick and nailpolsh but other than that do not go full out girly and OK I'll admit maybe sometimes it does kind of turn me on,and please forgive me if I misunderstood your previous comment as judgmental it just kind of sounded that way to me I am sorry
SW-User
@Cinnamon - I've had that problem a lot, I don't like sports, prefer classical music to RnB, and I've never wolf-whistled anyone! lol
Cinnamon · 31-35, F
This thread is evidence that gender isn't over yet...
http://similarworlds.com/story?fid=7900480&tid=8578&sort=1&name=I-Hate-Fake-People
erik2000 · 22-25, M
Cinnamon, In Hungarian he and she are only 1 word so it makes no difference between genders. But I never saw any bearded mothers here :)
Cinnamon · 31-35, F
@sludgefeast oooh I want to hear more of your thoughts about gender and everything else
carpediem · 61-69, M
@LSeule Not looking to get into a big disagreement here, but behavior is taught. Gender is not behavior. However, I'll acknowledge that in terms of your comment gender is used to define social and cultural differences over biological differences. My position is, if I've got big Johnny hanging between my legs, I'm a male, not a female. Even if I pretend to be otherwise, I'm still a male.
PlumBerries · 31-35, F
I have no idea how you choose clothes now, let alone in 20 years 😋
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MrsKatherineArch · 41-45, F
Sorry! I will send you a quick message in a sec.
Cinnamon · 31-35, F
@erik2000 even that is not quite accurate! There are trans people who identify as male and dress and generally look male (for example with beards) who have still chosen to get pregnant and give birth to children. I have friends like that.
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Cinnamon · 31-35, F
@Quizling I agree with you about that; the expectations and restrictions associated with gender are often bad for men too. Another example is how hard some guys struggle to be "real men" when those stereotypes don't fit them at all...
Cinnamon · 31-35, F
@adaydreambeliever yes, those are great examples of the "little" ways that women are still getting the short end of the stick -- which add up to something very big. A lot still needs to change if equality is going to become real!
Cinnamon · 31-35, F
Bigbear I definitely think there are regional variations with all of this! But you were mentioning in another post standing up for trans friends, weren't you? So things are not all that monolithic where you are either...
Cinnamon · 31-35, F
@Highonheels so am I hearing you right that although you believe that gender is a biological fact for most people, you don't agree with society's conventions about male and female roles, like who wears which clothing?
Cinnamon · 31-35, F
@SparklyGayGuy I'm not intersex myself as far as I know... most of us don't know what our chromosomes are! But I know a couple of interesting people who are intersex, from birth, in different ways.
Cinnamon · 31-35, F
@mic112255 I'm with you on that and a site like this is great for meeting all kinds of different people with different experiences and ways of seeing the world.
Cinnamon · 31-35, F
OK everyone, no more she or he in English, we are borrowing "ő" from Hungarian! If you don't know how to pronounce it ask Erik2000, ő knows! :)
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SW-User
There is inequality on both sides to be fair... Courts usually siding with mothers for custody being one just example
Cinnamon · 31-35, F
@Erik2000 yay! Hungarian is setting an example as a gender-neutral language! :) What is the he/she pronoun in Hungarian?
Cinnamon · 31-35, F
Erik, so the pronoun is the long sound? Just want to make sure I am getting this right before I introduce it into the English language :)
bigbear170 · 26-30, M
yo quiz i don't know about you but the only guys i know and see are " Manly" the only feminine guys I've ever seen are online.
bigbear170 · 26-30, M
well i dont think ill have that option ANY time within the near future. i live in the south so we kinda have to be tough around here. lol
MrsKatherineArch · 41-45, F
I think that gender in some form will always be around, even if someone identifies as gender variant.
workaholic26 · 26-30, M
it seems to be over because you see so many styles now. be a free spirit and live your life the way you want to
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