I Hate Fascism

The Spanish electoral board attempted to veto Junqueras as an MEP and that veto was blocked by European Justice. Then the Spanish Supreme Court says that he won’t be released and EJ accepts that. European Justice is supreme to the Spanish Supreme Court court just as the Spanish Supreme Court is to us. If they don’t have to follow the rulings, it makes no sense that we should either.

As for fascism, Spain is trying to completely assimilate Catalonia into Spain, and denying us the rights to democracy and self government. They go after every leader we have and shut down every voice we have by every code in the book but will not listen to European Justice? Jailing somebody who won 1.3 million votes who has parliamentary immunity is nothing short of fascism, and it’s criminal for it to be overlooked. @Kwek00

Change “EU” to ‘Spain’ and “membership states” to ‘Catalonia.’
Do you see the problem? @Kwek00

@NenaRussa
This is such a blatant LIE. The Spanish government has bent over backwards to let each Spanish region promote their own unique culture. Few (if any) countries allow the degree of autonomy that Spain grants to its autonomous regions. But of course the only hope of Catalan separatists to promote their cause is whining about the "fascist Spanish government" and hope the ignorant people outside of Spain will buy it.

Catalan separatists also like to point out that "90%" of people in Catalunya voted in favor of independence (2,044,038 "Yes" votes out of 2,221,585 valid votes). Yet, the turn out was just 43%, and the total registered votes was 5,313,564. If you do the math, only 38% of registered voters actively want independence, and thus 62% of registered voters are not interested in becoming independent

So who's being fascist? Is it fair that only 38% or Catalan voters force independence down the throats of all Catalans (not to mention down the throats of all the Spanish people who feels strongly against Catalan separatism)? Who is being "fascist" then? Of course, in this time and age, anyone who disagree with a point of view is labelled as "fascist". But frankly spreading LIES is more in line with fascism that with people who value democratic values and the rule of law.

That was over 2 years ago, when they were using riot police to beat people who tried to enter the poll stations and shoot them with rubber bullets, and the streets were war zones. Lots of people, including me did not support full independence at the time but since 2017 a lot has happened. You can’t use a blanket statement like “Few countries give as much autonomy as Spain” because it means nothing. You have no idea the history and the culture, how full autonomy was never an issue until Franco came to power in Spain. Now we still have nationalists who sing fascist songs outside city hall. Everybody in Catalonia supports autonomy. Most support independence because of Spain’s refusal to allow that. By the constitution we are allowed to hold a referendum, so if the government would actually allow it, we could see most registered voters vote.

That is separate from this issue, which is Spain jailing an elected Catalan government official with parliamentary immunity from the EU. You call that democratic values? @drymer

@NenaRussa
I can only find rulings in the EU Court up to this one:

https://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2019-12/cp190161en.pdf

Which gives Spain a loophole:


Then I've been looking up if Spain actually used this clause.
I can only find newspaper articles where the Spanish Supreme court asked the EU-Court to give a clarification of the text that you find in the link.

I find newsarticles that say the Spanish court will not abide by the EUs descision. So I guess (cause I don't find annything about it) they will use the thing I quoted in some wayy or another?

What ever is going to happen, this all super fresh (politicaly and judically speaking). So at some point I'm guessing the EU will have to force Spain to either clarify their position and say why they won't abide OR use the paragraph I posted to clarify why Junqueras should not be granted the priveleges of his immunity. I guess that will be another chapter to this entire process that will come soon (either this month or the next). Unless you have found some document from the EU or Spain that shows that this already done? But I've been looking, and I've not found anny ... altough certain documents are in Spanish (and I'm not going to study Spanish right now).



This is such a weird argument to make.
Like... first of all, the term "fashist" here, really doesn't apply. In what way is the Spanish central governement talking about unifying the state and all it's functions in one big body ruled by some destined elite? Where is this happening? What fascist ideas are they pushing?

In 1978, Spain got a constitution tough which the entire country agreed with.

http://www.congreso.es/portal/page/portal/Congreso/Congreso/Hist_Normas/Norm/const_espa_texto_ingles_0.pdf

On page 10 (not even that far in) you can read section II:


So Spain uses this legal document to stop those that advocate for seperatism. Which is kinda what you would accept from Spain as a whole, since it wants to protect it's borders and it's sovereignity as a unit. However, Spain recognises the nationalities and the regions who get some form of self governement.



Why would I even do that? Do you think that the relationship of the EU with it's memberstates is the same relationships that spain and Catalonia have. That's a bizar sort of reasoning, since every memberstate of the EU still holds it's own sovereign rights except for those that they decided to give to the EU.

Spain is the sovereign state and it recognises that diffrent nationalities and regions need some independence. So they have gradually given more independence to the regions since Spains' conception. But Spain isn't a federation neither is it a supra-national concept. It's just a sovereign state that has it's own form of governing in which it allows regions to have a high dosis of independence. This independence is not the same as being your own sovereign. (for as far as I read, it because 132 pages is way longer then the constitutions I've been skimming over in the last couple of days).



I'm totally in agreement with this one. It's kinda frustrating to see governements do this, and I consider it highly injust even tough Spain protects their constitution and sovereignity. I think you can make good causes about why using violence of these measures broke ideas like "proportionality" (to say the least).

I also recognise that Spain with it's ultra-conservative dictatorship that held up for quite a long time has a troubled past. And that these ideas still linger and manifest. The 1970s aren't that long ago. However, because this excists, that doesn't make it fascist or a dictatorship for that matter.



But I have hard time placing the blame soley on Spain, when a seperatist movement goes against the constitution of the country they want to seperate from. It's just the fact that you do something that goes against the rules, that the arbiter of the rules (the sovereign) protects it's rights. Which were also written in the constitution. So maybe if you want to seperate from Spain in a pure democratic fashion (if you really want to talk about democracy) you should get a majority in the Spanish parliament and try to change the constitution so that Section II on page 10 gets changed. If you don't do that, you place yourself outside of the constitution with your practise and your nation sets a step towards revolution.

Not sure if this makes sense, but that's what I got from it so far.

The fact that I speak fluent Spanish but not quite fluent Catalan shows in itself that Spain is harming Catalan culture. This happened during the civil war also, when there were entire generations of Catalan people who did not speak the language.

Just 3 days ago we had a couple hundred fascists waving the flag of the Franco dictatorship, and singing fascists hymns. The current king of Spain is the successor of his father who was handpicked by Franco. We can not pretend like fascism is not still around.

To clarify, Spain is claiming that since Junqueras was convicted in October, he is barred from holding an office but the EU stated that he had parliamentary immunity from the moment he was elected in the ensnared of May, and that his detention was unlawful. Catalonia used to be independent, if you did not know. I would suggest reading up on Charles III and the War of Spanish Succession @Kwek00

@NenaRussa

That's like section 3 (page 10-11) of the constitution.
Since 1978, in contradiction to Francos' rule, the Catalaan language was protected and was free to use inside the region. The official language is still Spanish. So if you think you don't know your Catalaan language, maybe you should look at the regional governements you had since 1978, because this particulair aspect belongs to what they should be organising.

What happened in Francos' time, is (at least for me) an abhoration. And part of that trauma is still playing in the mindset of people today. As I said, the 1970s aren't that long ago, so these things are pretty fresh. And it's not because Franco went out, that ultra-conservative movements just left the building. The 2nd world war has been over since 1945, yet, we still have people in parliament that believe Hitler did nothing wrong. This is just a process, and this takes time. Certain things (hopefully) die out.



If you took the time to read what I linked you. Then you know that I have a conception of what happened. I also know that Spains' territorial problems aren't from yesterday. However, even with the historical background, the emotions, the frustrations, etc etc... in 1978 you people agreed to a new deal. Which became a constitution. So today, in todays world, even with all the past, you are working within that framework.

When you play Risk (not sure if you ever did), certain copies of the game have a border betwen the "middle east" and "east africa". Certain copies don't. So there is always a discussion at the beginning of a game (depending on what board you are using) if these territories touch. That agreement is honored while you play. In 1978 the Spanish people (including the Basques and the Catalaans) made their deal. And that the framework in which you people are playing. Seperatists however, have a problem with this framework (which is kinda normal), but using the term "anti democratic" to create a sphere in which their actions should be more legal then they actually are... for me seems to be more a political trick then factual truth.

But these toppics are pretty hard, because seperatists and constitutions don't go along if the constitution doesn't allow a seperatist movement to excist. Which is the case for Spain.