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Why are the European nations in NATO spoiling for war with Russia?

Fighter jets from NATO nations, including Poland and Sweden, were scrambled after Russia launched long-range missile strikes in Ukraine overnight.

Polish and allied aircraft have begun operations, and ground-based air defense and radar reconnaissance systems have reached the highest state of readiness. Gripen fighter jets belonging to Sweden's air force, some of which are stationed in Poland, "helped ensure safety in Polish skies tonight" the Polish military said.

The problem lies in the hatred exported to the US by immigrants from Europe. My Polish maid, a 50 year old American citizen, said she hated Russians. She had lived in Poland under the USSR until she was 17 when the Iron Curtain fell.

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ElwoodBlues · M

@smiler2012 says

and any security for ukraine all sides can agree on that is acceptable to all parties

Actually, there was a very clear and unambiguous treaty regarding Ukraine known as the 1994 Budapest Memorandum.

Essentially, Ukraine agreed to give up all its nuclear weapons to Russia in exchange for safety from a U.S. or Russian invasion. Russia's invasion of Ukraine violates that treaty. And as a signatory to that 1994 Budapest Memorandum, the U.S. has a definite interest in righting Putin's current wrongs.

In the final version of the deal, Russia promised not to attack Ukraine. While the U.S. and the U.K. assured Ukraine they would aid if it was attacked by Russia, that promised aid did not guarantee military support like a NATO country would receive.

In 2009, Russia and the U.S. announced that the assurances in the Budapest Memorandum would continue to remain in effect in the future.

https://www.verifythis.com/article/news/verify/global-conflicts/ukraine-agreed-to-give-up-nukes-in-exchange-for-safety-from-russia-invasion-attack-budapest-memorandum-treaty/536-8748a51f-10ee-47f0-be30-b4088750ee44

Russia promised specifically NOT to invade Ukraine, and the U.S. promised specifically to ASSIST Ukraine if the treaty were ever violated. And that's what the U.S. had been doing until tRump trashed the treaty and switched to appeasement.

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ElwoodBlues · M

@sree251 And this affects treaty compliance how???

sree251 · 41-45, M

@ElwoodBlues

And this affects treaty compliance how???

Treaty compliance? Are you nuts? Agreements are made to be broken.

ElwoodBlues · M

@sree251 says

Agreements are made to be broken.

Only if you want to start a war.

Truth is, you are trying to change the topic away from the 1994 Ukraine treaty because you know both Putin & tRump's positions on Ukraine are indefensible.

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ElwoodBlues · M

@sree251 Russian expansionism brought on the Ukraine invasion. Just like it brought on these invasions.

Soviet invasion of Azerbaijan, 1920
Soviet invasion of Armenia, 1920
Red Army invasion of Georgia, 1921
Soviet invasion of Xinjiang, 1934
Soviet invasion of Poland, 1939
Winter War, 1939
Soviet occupation of the Baltic States, 1940
Soviet occupation of Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina, 1940
Soviet invasion of Manchuria, 1945
Hungarian Revolution of 1956
Warsaw Pact invasion of Czechoslovakia, 1968
Soviet–Afghan War, 1979–1989
First Chechen War, 1994–1997
Second Chechen War, 1999–2000
Russo-Georgian War, 2008
Russo-Ukrainian War, 2014–present
Russian invasion of Ukraine, 2022–present

sree251 · 41-45, M

@ElwoodBlues

Russian expansionism brought on the Ukraine invasion. Just like it brought on these invasions.

What about NATO expansionism that brought on the Ukraine invasion?

Kwek00 · 41-45, M

@sree251 How did NATO expand? Last time I looked, countries need to apply on their own accord. Why did so many eastern european countries do this? @smiler2012 gave the answer earlier...

@JSul3 yes true but not even putin is crazy or ambitious enough to invade a nato country [...]

It's funny that this guy is aware of this... but still makes such a dumb analysis, where he as a British guy is telling Ukraine to absorb all the opression he wouldn't take. If he voted pro-BREXIT, his stance would be even more ridiculous... but that is just speculation from my part.

ElwoodBlues · M

@sree251 Time for you to actually READ my post about the 1994 Budapest Memorandum.
Lemme quote myself.

Essentially, Ukraine agreed to give up all its nuclear weapons to Russia in exchange for safety from a U.S. or Russian invasion. Russia's invasion of Ukraine violates that treaty. And as a signatory to that 1994 Budapest Memorandum, the U.S. has a definite interest in righting Putin's current wrongs.

Lemme also repost the link to the treaty.
https://www.verifythis.com/article/news/verify/global-conflicts/ukraine-agreed-to-give-up-nukes-in-exchange-for-safety-from-russia-invasion-attack-budapest-memorandum-treaty/536-8748a51f-10ee-47f0-be30-b4088750ee44

Nothing in that treaty prevents Ukraine from joining any other defensive alliance; whether Russian oriented or otherwise. NATO is no threat to Russia's borders. However, NATO does impede Russian expansionism; a thing whose existence you keep trying to deny🤣😂

BTW, funny thing, Putin wanted Russia to join NATO back in 2000.

“Putin said: ‘When are you going to invite us to join Nato?’ And [Robertson] said: ‘Well, we don’t invite people to join Nato, they apply to join Nato.’ And he said: ‘Well, we’re not standing in line with a lot of countries that don’t matter.’”

sree251 · 41-45, M

@ElwoodBlues

NATO is no threat to Russia's borders.

Any armed gang is a threat to those not part of the gang.

BTW, funny thing, Putin wanted Russia to join NATO back in 2000.

Right. And it's because Putin wanted Russia to be inside the NATO gang. Putin was Russia's KGB. He wanted to be part of NATO's CIA and MI6. Why won't we let him? Can you explain that, Elwood?

ElwoodBlues · M

@sree251 Putin never actually applied to join NATO, and gave his reasons, so the question was never put to the test. Read the actual quote, it's very brief.

sree251 · 41-45, M

@ElwoodBlues

Putin never actually applied to join NATO, and gave his reasons, so the question was never put to the test. Read the actual quote, it's very brief.

How would you know what Putin did?

ElwoodBlues · M

@sree251 If Russia had applied for NATO membership there would be an extensive historical record.

BTW, NATO has certain expectations about its members and aspiring members such as upholding democratic principles, including the transparency of their electoral processes and military budgets and expenditures. I can see how those expectations might rain on Putin's parade.

sree251 · 41-45, M

@ElwoodBlues

If Russia had applied for NATO membership there would be an extensive historical record.

Russia never applied for NATO membership. Putin did cooperate with NATO's response to 9/11 when Bush attacked Afghanistan. It didn't do the Russians any good.

BTW, NATO has certain expectations about its members and aspiring members such as upholding democratic principles,

What democratic principles? Are you nuts? Have you not been screwed enough by your senators and representatives in Congress?

ElwoodBlues · M

@sree251 You asked

How would you know what Putin did?

You already knew the answer, yet you doubted that I could know? What gives??

Do you believe that you have magic powers of information detection and you're testing to see if I have them too??

sree251 · 41-45, M

@ElwoodBlues

You already knew the answer, yet you doubted that I could know? What gives??

What do you know?

Do you believe that you have magic powers of information detection and you're testing to see if I have them too??

What are you talking about?