Viktor Orban's Hungary is the model for the Trump/Musk playbook.

@Elessar Excellent comment.

Hungary is of course a small country. It's only international influence is to be an example and a harbinger.

I did vote against Brexit but the EU has lots of problems and vulnerabilities. You outlined well some of the structural problems and it needs to work well together as a block to resist Musk and Trump.

With the far right growing though, I do fear that Europe will eventually end up where America is now.

@Elessar I think the main problem with how the EU treats Hungary is that Orbàn does have a lot of support, or did have, as his party and he were elected versus other parties. Whether he still has much support is a different matter probably very hard to determine.

The voters for such people have broadly similar views to the candidates, so if the government then starts becoming more repressive it probably does not affect these voters much, and they might even welcome the tightening laws if only for keeping their opponents down.

Also, unfortunately, withdrawing subsidies will not hurt Viktor Orbàn but could hurt many other Hungarians. Especially farmers as agriculture is among the main beneficiaries of EU subsidies. This could also go wrong by increasing support for Orbàn, who would likely twist the story to appear an economic attack on them by the EU.

The EU has made its feelings clear but it is very difficult to deal with an elected President of an EU member-state, who then uses his position to manipulate the system and consolidate his own power. In the end it has to be the Hungarians themselves to deal with him... if they are allowed.

At worst, if the EU could so alienate Viktor Orbàn that he turns his country towards Russia and Belorus; the latter ruled by a man at least as brutal as Vladimir Putin. He would not worry about his fellow-Hungarians.

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Looking at the often bitter arguments for and against DOGE's antics, it does seem Elon Musk is not interested in analysis and accuracy if he can present what he says he finds, in ways that suit his, and his elected line-manager's, purpose.

@Burnley123 I think some of the diificulties now in many European countries are due to the EU, quite opposite to its intentions, by seeming no more than a remote creator of endless, arcane rules and regulations; good or bad. It is also not very democratic, and is very secretive.

It does need massive reform, and if it was stripped right back to a set of relatively simple international trade, security and cultural co-operation treaties, it might work. It might even be liked!

One aspect probably not realised by many people, is that many (but by no means all) EU Directives are transposed from truly international bodies and agreements: the UN, ISO, etc.

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One thing noticeable on SW is that many Americans seem to confuse the EU and Europe, perhaps because we East of the Atlantic often interchange the names - though we comprehend the context. Some also seem not to undertand "Europe" is not a single country as theirs is.
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Europe as a whole has one advantage over the USA: its many very different nations have political systems encouraging more than two parties in each.

Despite many states with differing needs and electoral views, the US is a single nation with basically just two parties. Anyone disaffected with both has no real alternative at the polls.

Against that, some multi-party countries' voting systems and parliaments tend to create rather wooly coalitions. That probably works reasonably well most of the time, but may unwittingly encourage fringe or extreme groups if the "centre" appears a consensus satisfying only fairly bland matters.


Totally unlike both; the EU has no political Parties! Its "Parliament" does not seem to debate anything, but it does discuss serious international matters and form a consensus to publish. It also spends considerable time merely nodding through the Commission's Directives with very little understanding and discussion. So its overall political flavour is undefined. It is a very vague average of its national representatives' or their home governments' views.

{I have used the term "debate" by its proper meaning.}


Disillusioned voters could of course simply not vote, by absence or defaced ballot-slip; but abstentions and tricks like so-called "tactical voting" (probably not applicable in the USA) are bad for any democracy.

@uikakarotuevegeta Really not

@uikakarotuevegeta Even some centrists seem to regard ordinary conservatives as "far right"! It is, of course, an expression used much more frequently, and more pejoratively, than "far left".

@MartinII when you're debating whether LGBT people should have basic rights, or if Native Americans should be counted as citizens, I'd say you've moved pretty far right and authoritarian.

@georgelong the upper class by definition cannot be "elite left", because the left is against excessive wealth and promotes egalitarianism and equity.

Sure for others 😂🤣😂 @basilfawlty89

@georgelong name am "elite wealthy leftist". What maked then a leftist? Are they actively encouraging worker's ownership of the means of production? Are they for overthrowing the bourgeoisie state?

Saying "let's treat gay people and black people like human beings" isn't leftism, it's basic human decency.

@Burnley123 more like the silent majority is sick and tired of the far left forcing their ideologies down everyone's throats, and the far left going so left they view anyone who's conservative as far right, centrist as right wing, and liberal as centrist

@uikakarotuevegeta yes , yes , and YES!

@uikakarotuevegeta which ideologies are being shoved down your throat?