Vance really effed things up in Europe
Trump likes idiots - thats why he nominated him!
46-50, M
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Burnley123 · 41-45, M
Why do you underestimate these people? It's all part of a coherent agenda and plan.
What they want is to dismantle European regulation on American companies (like Tesla) and to pressure Europe to pay more on defence. Vance also attempted to link this to culture-war issues.
If they offended Europeans: That was the intention. The speech was an attempt at intimidation and to play well with the MAGA base at home.
All of this is strategy. You can see what they are trying to do and it's awful.
What they want is to dismantle European regulation on American companies (like Tesla) and to pressure Europe to pay more on defence. Vance also attempted to link this to culture-war issues.
If they offended Europeans: That was the intention. The speech was an attempt at intimidation and to play well with the MAGA base at home.
All of this is strategy. You can see what they are trying to do and it's awful.
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SunshineGirl · 36-40, F
@Burnley123 I think yesterday was quite a miscalculation though. Pumped up by his own self-importance and over-confidence, he stepped into a large conference of ministers with literally no plan to offer and had to witter on for 20 mins about "free speech" 😅
trollslayer · 46-50, M
@SunshineGirl agreed. If the motivation was to bully, he did a very schittie job.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@SunshineGirl @trollslayer They have a plan. They just don't tell people what it is.
markinkansas · 61-69, M
@Burnley123 no a concept of a plan .. as trump would put it
sree251 · 41-45, M
@Burnley123
Awful to whom besides yourself?
All of this is strategy. You can see what they are trying to do and it's awful.
Awful to whom besides yourself?
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@Burnley123 I don't always agree with your views but I do, largely, on this one.
I am not sure if they intend offence, but I don't think the Messrs. Vance / Elon / Trump triumvirate really worry about diplomacy.
BTW, does Mr. Vance have a name? Calling him J.D. Vance all the time when everyone else is called by the first and surnames (at least by non-Americans) seems dotty. Makes him sound like a rapper!
I am not sure if they intend offence, but I don't think the Messrs. Vance / Elon / Trump triumvirate really worry about diplomacy.
BTW, does Mr. Vance have a name? Calling him J.D. Vance all the time when everyone else is called by the first and surnames (at least by non-Americans) seems dotty. Makes him sound like a rapper!
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@sree251 I know Americans like to use their middle initials butg most seem to use their first name in full.
More to the point though is what he said at the conference. I think everyone expected an appeal for more defence spending by European members of NATO, and would agree, although of course that calls for either higher taxes or cuts in other public services.
They did not expect him to be speaking for a President who seems to want to end the war in Ukraine by what looks like semi-private negotiations with Russia that ignore Ukraine itself, and the rest of Europe - something like 26 separate nations.
Nor did they expect him to speak as if trying to interfere with the USA's NATO allies' internal politics, as some apparently read him.
More to the point though is what he said at the conference. I think everyone expected an appeal for more defence spending by European members of NATO, and would agree, although of course that calls for either higher taxes or cuts in other public services.
They did not expect him to be speaking for a President who seems to want to end the war in Ukraine by what looks like semi-private negotiations with Russia that ignore Ukraine itself, and the rest of Europe - something like 26 separate nations.
Nor did they expect him to speak as if trying to interfere with the USA's NATO allies' internal politics, as some apparently read him.
sree251 · 41-45, M
@ArishMell
The present Administration has no intention to ask for more defense spending. Trump may keep bringing up the fact that the Europeans have been screwing with the US over NATO defense spending, but it is to point out the fact that the NATO alliance is dead. If Europeans want security, they had better pick up their own guns and start facing threats themselves.
Europe has lost its way. Nobody expected the EU, as an economic bloc, to survive. Why it has not collapsed and is still standing boggles the mind. The euro used to be worth 1.6 USD and is now at parity. NATO had support from the US for the aim of projecting superpower status worldwide after collapsed of the USSR. That support is gone because Trump is a businessman. He plays monopoly. He doesn't fight war.
Western Europe is the hotbed of liberal progressive culture that is much detested in America. The Trump Administration will not interfere with Europe's internal politics. He could care less as his mandate is to focus on America first. The European Union may collapse.
More to the point though is what he said at the conference. I think everyone expected an appeal for more defence spending by European members of NATO, and would agree, although of course that calls for either higher taxes or cuts in other public services.
The present Administration has no intention to ask for more defense spending. Trump may keep bringing up the fact that the Europeans have been screwing with the US over NATO defense spending, but it is to point out the fact that the NATO alliance is dead. If Europeans want security, they had better pick up their own guns and start facing threats themselves.
They did not expect him to be speaking for a President who seems to want to end the war in Ukraine by what looks like semi-private negotiations with Russia that ignore Ukraine itself, and the rest of Europe - something like 26 separate nations.
Europe has lost its way. Nobody expected the EU, as an economic bloc, to survive. Why it has not collapsed and is still standing boggles the mind. The euro used to be worth 1.6 USD and is now at parity. NATO had support from the US for the aim of projecting superpower status worldwide after collapsed of the USSR. That support is gone because Trump is a businessman. He plays monopoly. He doesn't fight war.
Nor did they expect him to speak as if trying to interfere with the USA's NATO allies' internal politics, as some apparently read him
Western Europe is the hotbed of liberal progressive culture that is much detested in America. The Trump Administration will not interfere with Europe's internal politics. He could care less as his mandate is to focus on America first. The European Union may collapse.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@sree251 I hav long thought the EU is its own worst enemy, and it certainly needs radical reform; but I think the Russian Federation's expansionism and now what looks like the USA turning away from it, may bring it closer together.
I know many Americans despise the social and political values most European nations espouse, such as national health, welfare and education services; but usually seem to agree to differ provided no-one suggests the USA adopt them. Those Americans appear to regard such services as tantamount to "Communism", an absurd allegation of course, but they may simply not comprehend how other countries operate.
The present US government might not intend to interfere with European nation's internall affairs, but might have been taken as that. I think Germany particularly thought so, but the conference is being held in Munich.
I don't know what has happened on the currency markets but the reduction in the euro's value might be a reaction to the USA's tariffs on imports. The stock-exchanges and money-traders are notoriously fickle and panicky.
Many Europeans are indeed saying we should strengthen ourselves, militarily.
I know many Americans despise the social and political values most European nations espouse, such as national health, welfare and education services; but usually seem to agree to differ provided no-one suggests the USA adopt them. Those Americans appear to regard such services as tantamount to "Communism", an absurd allegation of course, but they may simply not comprehend how other countries operate.
The present US government might not intend to interfere with European nation's internall affairs, but might have been taken as that. I think Germany particularly thought so, but the conference is being held in Munich.
I don't know what has happened on the currency markets but the reduction in the euro's value might be a reaction to the USA's tariffs on imports. The stock-exchanges and money-traders are notoriously fickle and panicky.
Many Europeans are indeed saying we should strengthen ourselves, militarily.
SW-User
@ArishMell How is Europe going to strengthen itself? They have been carried by America for the last 80 years. The southern European states will not be interested, and Eastern Europe is not afflicted with the woke virus.
What do you think would happen if AfD were able to gain power in Germany? It would all fall apart.
What do you think would happen if AfD were able to gain power in Germany? It would all fall apart.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@SW-User Don't underestimate them.
I don't know what it is that you call the "woke virus" but this is a matter of international security and peace, not social attitudes.
The AfD has a lot of support but is still a minority party in Germany; and it is not anti-co-operation. It does not call for Germany to leave the EU for example, though that is an economic not military bloc, but does want it reformed.
I think if Putin really started to cut up rough even beyond Ukraine, threatening Poland or the Basltci States for example; Europe would generally stand together. Hungary and Turkey under their present governments might waver or try to be neutral, but most would support each other.
Yes, it would mean all European nations increasing their defence spending but no-one is blind to that. President Zelensky calls for an "European Army". France seems to agree but no-one else does. Instead they stand by NATO even with the possibility of the US staying aloof and ignoring its allies. In effect it would not be a "European Army" (or Navy, or Air Force) but a combined force of allies.
I don't know what it is that you call the "woke virus" but this is a matter of international security and peace, not social attitudes.
The AfD has a lot of support but is still a minority party in Germany; and it is not anti-co-operation. It does not call for Germany to leave the EU for example, though that is an economic not military bloc, but does want it reformed.
I think if Putin really started to cut up rough even beyond Ukraine, threatening Poland or the Basltci States for example; Europe would generally stand together. Hungary and Turkey under their present governments might waver or try to be neutral, but most would support each other.
Yes, it would mean all European nations increasing their defence spending but no-one is blind to that. President Zelensky calls for an "European Army". France seems to agree but no-one else does. Instead they stand by NATO even with the possibility of the US staying aloof and ignoring its allies. In effect it would not be a "European Army" (or Navy, or Air Force) but a combined force of allies.
sree251 · 41-45, M
@ArishMell
Closer has never been an inclination of the human specie with selfishness and violence at its core; especially, when traditional family values inspired by religion are displaced by progressive atheism.
Americans are hardwired to view communism as a threat to democracy. What is practiced in China is socialism of the kind you described and is embraced in European nations. And yet, Europeans in NATO are ready to back the US in facing down the China threat. Can you explain why the EU is not aligned with China?
Germany is a strange beast. It is still occupied by Americans some 70 years after WW2. It limps on regardless like a castrated animal despite the fact that it is the economic engine of Europe. Germans, like the Japanese, is a superior culture. Their suppression needs to stop. Trump should remove US bases from Germany.
Ourselves? To each his own, I say. Let Germany be great again, industrially.
I hav long thought the EU is its own worst enemy, and it certainly needs radical reform; but I think the Russian Federation's expansionism and now what looks like the USA turning away from it, may bring it closer together.
Closer has never been an inclination of the human specie with selfishness and violence at its core; especially, when traditional family values inspired by religion are displaced by progressive atheism.
I know many Americans despise the social and political values most European nations espouse, such as national health, welfare and education services; but usually seem to agree to differ provided no-one suggests the USA adopt them. Those Americans appear to regard such services as tantamount to "Communism", an absurd allegation of course, but they may simply not comprehend how other countries operate.
Americans are hardwired to view communism as a threat to democracy. What is practiced in China is socialism of the kind you described and is embraced in European nations. And yet, Europeans in NATO are ready to back the US in facing down the China threat. Can you explain why the EU is not aligned with China?
The present US government might not intend to interfere with European nation's internall affairs, but might have been taken as that. I think Germany particularly thought so, but the conference is being held in Munich.
Germany is a strange beast. It is still occupied by Americans some 70 years after WW2. It limps on regardless like a castrated animal despite the fact that it is the economic engine of Europe. Germans, like the Japanese, is a superior culture. Their suppression needs to stop. Trump should remove US bases from Germany.
I don't know what has happened on the currency markets but the reduction in the euro's value might be a reaction to the USA's tariffs on imports. The stock-exchanges and money-traders are notoriously fickle and panicky.
Many Europeans are indeed saying we should strengthen ourselves, militarily.
Many Europeans are indeed saying we should strengthen ourselves, militarily.
Ourselves? To each his own, I say. Let Germany be great again, industrially.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@sree251 I take it you are an American Republican-Party voter! :-)
Some of what you say is really rather odd, like that
You don't have to be religious to be good, and many religious people are downright bad. Anyway this has nothing whatever to do with religion, and I do not know what you define as "traditional family values" - are those "without issue", valueless?
Just because China has comprehensive welfare services, and most European countries have comprehensive welfare services, does NOT mean their political systems are the same!
China is a Communist, single-party tyranny. European nations are democracies with assorted governments formed of parties of Left, Right and Centre.
I know many Americans are terrified of anything "socialist", but they just do not or will not understand democracies can have public welfare services. I don't know why that is, but I do wonder if Americans are taught anything about other countries.
Germany great again? Yes - along with France, Italy, Spain, Scandinavia, Britain......
Some of what you say is really rather odd, like that
especially, when traditional family values inspired by religion are displaced by progressive atheism.
You don't have to be religious to be good, and many religious people are downright bad. Anyway this has nothing whatever to do with religion, and I do not know what you define as "traditional family values" - are those "without issue", valueless?
Just because China has comprehensive welfare services, and most European countries have comprehensive welfare services, does NOT mean their political systems are the same!
China is a Communist, single-party tyranny. European nations are democracies with assorted governments formed of parties of Left, Right and Centre.
I know many Americans are terrified of anything "socialist", but they just do not or will not understand democracies can have public welfare services. I don't know why that is, but I do wonder if Americans are taught anything about other countries.
Germany great again? Yes - along with France, Italy, Spain, Scandinavia, Britain......
SW-User
@ArishMell Putin going beyond Ukraine is a western fantasy. You all have nightmares about it when you go to bed at night. It is hysterical. Russia has no interest in Poland or the Baltic states. Belarus and Ukraine are Russian speaking nations that share a history and culture. NATO has no business surrounding Russia.
Europe is not unified. Some European nations still want cheap Russian gas, and they are getting it. Some European nations are poor at fighting, while others are good. There are European nations that are still religious. Who are you kidding? AfD wants to make Germany great again and this means not carrying the rest of Europe while being carried by US.
Europe is not unified. Some European nations still want cheap Russian gas, and they are getting it. Some European nations are poor at fighting, while others are good. There are European nations that are still religious. Who are you kidding? AfD wants to make Germany great again and this means not carrying the rest of Europe while being carried by US.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@SW-User I did not say no Europeans are religious. Many are, many are not - but together they cover the whole gamut of religious beliefs and on the whole get along together.
NATO is not trying to "surround" YOUR RUSSIA.
(It suddenly occurred to me to look at your profile: RUSSIA.)
NO European country, including Germany, wants to "carry" anyone else; nor be carried, really. Nor do they.
YOUR RUSSIA invaded Ukraine; annexing the Crimea in 2014 and attempting to seize the entire country in 2022. Alhough I know you are not allowed by Russian law to call it more than a "special military operation" as if just a routine Army exercise.
What you might not know is that after the collapse of the USSR, Ukraine, the UK, USA and Russia signed a treaty under which Ukraine would abandon its large stockpile of (ex-USSR) nuclear weapons, in return for being an independent, sovereign nation.
There was talk of Ukraine joining NATO even before then but it did not happen, possibly because Russia was not seen as a threat then but I do not know actually why. Ukraine also wants to join the EU, which is a trading, not military, alliance.
NATO is not trying to "surround" YOUR RUSSIA.
(It suddenly occurred to me to look at your profile: RUSSIA.)
NO European country, including Germany, wants to "carry" anyone else; nor be carried, really. Nor do they.
YOUR RUSSIA invaded Ukraine; annexing the Crimea in 2014 and attempting to seize the entire country in 2022. Alhough I know you are not allowed by Russian law to call it more than a "special military operation" as if just a routine Army exercise.
What you might not know is that after the collapse of the USSR, Ukraine, the UK, USA and Russia signed a treaty under which Ukraine would abandon its large stockpile of (ex-USSR) nuclear weapons, in return for being an independent, sovereign nation.
There was talk of Ukraine joining NATO even before then but it did not happen, possibly because Russia was not seen as a threat then but I do not know actually why. Ukraine also wants to join the EU, which is a trading, not military, alliance.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@SW-User Given the EU has a total GDP similar to America and that America willingly paid extra into NATO to have hegemonic control for its own geopolitical interests: it's a stretch to say that the US carried the EU.
What is happening now in geopolitics is a symptom of American decline. It no longer wants to be the cold-war era policeman because it can't.
There are no real.grand ideological or economic incentives to be in conflict with Russia (as there were in the 70s). The US has instead decided that it instead needs an economic war with Children na. Demographics and history suggest that it will probably lose.
Though US tech billionaires may benefit if Trump is able to pressure Europe into stripping back regulation. That is what Vance's speech was really aimed at.
What is happening now in geopolitics is a symptom of American decline. It no longer wants to be the cold-war era policeman because it can't.
There are no real.grand ideological or economic incentives to be in conflict with Russia (as there were in the 70s). The US has instead decided that it instead needs an economic war with Children na. Demographics and history suggest that it will probably lose.
Though US tech billionaires may benefit if Trump is able to pressure Europe into stripping back regulation. That is what Vance's speech was really aimed at.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@SW-User To call Ukraine a Russian speaking nation is a bit of a stretch. It also misses the point given they clearly have put bodies on the line to maintain an independent state.
The AFD wants to make Germany great again? Whaaay! Party like it's 1939 and hope you don't need another Great Patriotic War!
The AFD wants to make Germany great again? Whaaay! Party like it's 1939 and hope you don't need another Great Patriotic War!
ffony · M
@SW-User
Russia has no interest in Poland or the Baltic states.
Trust me, trust me 😁.
MartinII · 70-79, M
@Burnley123 That's one way of looking at it. Another is that he was simply telling things as they are. Either way, I agree that you shouldn't underestimate them.
SW-User
@Burnley123 What is wrong with making Germany great again?
Ukrainian language is Russian. Belarusian is the same. Some would call them dialects.
“Though US tech billionaires may benefit if Trump is able to pressure Europe into stripping back regulation.”
Trump is a conservative with libertarian principles. He would like there to be less regulation. You are a liberal with anti-libertarian principles, and love regulation.
“It no longer wants to be the cold-war era policeman because it can't.”
America came to be what it is now during WWII. It has gained immense power, and Trump does not have to go this way. He is, as he wants to put America first. It is about your country and your people, not other countries and the peoples of the world.
Ukrainian language is Russian. Belarusian is the same. Some would call them dialects.
“Though US tech billionaires may benefit if Trump is able to pressure Europe into stripping back regulation.”
Trump is a conservative with libertarian principles. He would like there to be less regulation. You are a liberal with anti-libertarian principles, and love regulation.
“It no longer wants to be the cold-war era policeman because it can't.”
America came to be what it is now during WWII. It has gained immense power, and Trump does not have to go this way. He is, as he wants to put America first. It is about your country and your people, not other countries and the peoples of the world.
MartinII · 70-79, M
@Burnley123 But, I think it is a perfectly reasonable interpretation of Putin's motives that he is only interested in Ukraine as a part of a greater Russia, and has no expansionist or aggressive motives beyond that.
sree251 · 41-45, M
@ArishMell
I did vote for Donald Trump only because Kamala Harris, like Biden and Obama, was a front for, in my opinion, harmful social reforms, no governance, and dangerous foreign policies.
Why is this odd? It's similar to proclaiming right conduct for the cosmos, the change of seasons, and the behaviors of nature. Progressive atheism recognize supremacy of selfish inclinations of a soulless organism.
You are speaking from the point of view of an atheist passing judgment on religious values. Patronizing much?
Traditional family values prescribe adherence to right conduct for man and woman, husband and wife, parent and child, both within the family and without in relating to others in society.
They are the same, in principle.
The single party of China provides for free discussion and resolution of differences among factions within the party. Such a process culminates in the forming of policies executed by the leader of the party. European democracies are similar to the parliamentary model of the UK. Even the Vatican is a democratic organization. The rough and tumble democracy of America can yield a President Trump that is, politically, more powerful than Xi Jinping.
We Americans are as insular as the citizens of imperial China 600 years ago They had neither curiosity nor interest in other cultures. As a matter of fact, most Americans hardly travel more than 5 miles from their homes and not lived outside their home states. I would be surprised if they even turn on the CNN International Channel.
Germany is the only powerhouse in Europe. Their economic figures speak for themselves.
I take it you are an American Republican-Party voter! :-)
I did vote for Donald Trump only because Kamala Harris, like Biden and Obama, was a front for, in my opinion, harmful social reforms, no governance, and dangerous foreign policies.
Some of what you say is really rather odd, like that
especially, when traditional family values inspired by religion are displaced by progressive atheism.
especially, when traditional family values inspired by religion are displaced by progressive atheism.
Why is this odd? It's similar to proclaiming right conduct for the cosmos, the change of seasons, and the behaviors of nature. Progressive atheism recognize supremacy of selfish inclinations of a soulless organism.
You don't have to be religious to be good, and many religious people are downright bad.
You are speaking from the point of view of an atheist passing judgment on religious values. Patronizing much?
Anyway this has nothing whatever to do with religion, and I do not know what you define as "traditional family values" - are those "without issue", valueless?
Traditional family values prescribe adherence to right conduct for man and woman, husband and wife, parent and child, both within the family and without in relating to others in society.
Just because China has comprehensive welfare services, and most European countries have comprehensive welfare services, does NOT mean their political systems are the same!
They are the same, in principle.
China is a Communist, single-party tyranny. European nations are democracies with assorted governments formed of parties of Left, Right and Centre.
The single party of China provides for free discussion and resolution of differences among factions within the party. Such a process culminates in the forming of policies executed by the leader of the party. European democracies are similar to the parliamentary model of the UK. Even the Vatican is a democratic organization. The rough and tumble democracy of America can yield a President Trump that is, politically, more powerful than Xi Jinping.
I know many Americans are terrified of anything "socialist", but they just do not or will not understand democracies can have public welfare services. I don't know why that is, but I do wonder if Americans are taught anything about other countries.
We Americans are as insular as the citizens of imperial China 600 years ago They had neither curiosity nor interest in other cultures. As a matter of fact, most Americans hardly travel more than 5 miles from their homes and not lived outside their home states. I would be surprised if they even turn on the CNN International Channel.
Germany great again? Yes - along with France, Italy, Spain, Scandinavia, Britain......
Germany is the only powerhouse in Europe. Their economic figures speak for themselves.
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