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How do you judge which side has popular appeal in a war-zone?

It's necessarily a tough question to answer because truth is the first casualty of war, information is hard to find and no voting is going to happen when tanks are rolling past. Also, a side controlling a recently contested territory, isn't going to do a referendum that anyone should trust.

I do have a theory of sorts though: If a side has an volunteer army prepared to put bodies on the line and a local population prepared to support it, then it's a regime with some serious popular appeal.

Someone asked if Asad was popular in Syria. He clearly wasn't, given how quickly his regime collapsed after a major defeat. Like them or not, the rebels against his regime kept fighting long after they'd seemingly lost the war in 2019 and has been reduced to guerillas on the fringes of their country. Guerillas can only survive at all as long as local people support their cause so they clearly have (at least) regional hegemony.

It's similar with the Taliban in Afghanistan. The western military was never able to take them out because rural Afghan communities hid them, fed them and supported them. For contrast, the well-founded pro-western army lost as soon as American military left the country.


People who say that Ukrainians resisting Russia are mere tools of western imperialism are wrong by this hypothesis. Why would they keep fighting and dying in a war they are losing if they didn't care about Ukrainian nationalism? Zelensky would win an election against a pro-putin Ukrainian. The people's reaction to the war tells us that.

Obviously there are other geopolitical issues in all these conflicts and my own opinions are different. Though I do think my general hypothesis is true.
beckyromero · 36-40, F
I pretty much agree with all that with a caveat.

It's similar with the Taliban in Afghanistan. The western military was never able to take them out because rural Afghan communities hid them, fed them and supported them. For contrast, the well-founded pro-western army lost as soon as American military left the country.

That's because we (i.e. the United States) never made a serious effort to engage those rural Afghan communities, to borrow a phrase "to win their hearts and minds."

We had a chance to do so when the Soviet Union pulled out. We could have built schools, roads, hospitals. We could have brought in medical supplies, food, emergency personnel.

Then after 9-11, we were given a second chance. And we blew that chance, too.

We could have spent pennies to the dollar for what it ending up costing in blood and treasure: 9-11, the aftermath, the occupation, etc. Probably even LESS than a penny to the dollar.
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@beckyromero The Afghanis have a very strict moral code. They very much viewed the US as being a danger to that moral code. They were not about to be bought by a few trinkets given them by the Yanks.
beckyromero · 36-40, F
@hippyjoe1955

Until the Saur Revolution in 1978, U.S. relations with Afghanistan had been cordial.

Then in 1979, our new Ambassador, Chicago-native Adolph "Spike" Dubs, was kidnapped in Kabul without any demands given to us. And then despite our pleas to wait, the Afghan government at the urging of their Soviet puppetmasters stormed the hotel room where Dubs was being held. Dubs was murdered in the ensuing firefight.

President Carter's national security advisor, Zbigniew Brzezinski believed that Dubs' death "was a tragic event which involved either Soviet ineptitude or collusion."

The KGB was likely involved and the entire incident may have been concocted to diminish U.S. financial aid to Afghanistan. If that was the goal, it succeeded as the U.S. immediately reduced planned humanitarian aid.

Later that year the Soviets invaded Afghanistan.
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@beckyromero The state and the people are two very different entities.
sree251 · 41-45, M
You ask a great question but it is a rhetorical one. The answer is already in the question as you have laid it out for us.

I also have an answer and I shall use it to refute yours. This is not to say that you are wrong and I am right. You and I are like two oriental medical doctors taking the pulse of a patient to fathom the cause of disease. It's symptom is obvious: war zones with opposing sides caught up in conflict.

Your over-arching assumption is that every individual in society has universal suffrage and exercises his/her right to form the kind of society he/she lives in. This assumption is wrong even in America which claim to practice democracy. Our system of government is a set up that forces every individual to accept the system framed in accordance with the Constitution. It's the only game in town. If you don't like how it rolls and challenge it at the Capitol as people did on Jan 6, you can get shot to death and thrown into jail. How do you expect camel riders in Saudi Arabia and goatherds in Afghanistan to exercise free will? Local people support guerillas the way Americans support thugs who control the neighborhoods in inner city ganglands. Mexican cartels operate in Chicago, New York, and Los Angeles. Woke Americans live in their ideological heads. They believe the USA is a free country and the rest of the planet must be set free also. This is why we have a military bases all over the world to take on any nation that don't abide by our rules-based order.

The war zones are US contested domains. The contestants are US assets on both sides of the conflicts. The popular appeal is US Dollars paid to fighters. The only exceptions are the conflict zones in Ukraine and Taiwan. The Russians and the Chinese have popular appeal. They will fight us to the death to be free of our meddling.
KiwiBird · 36-40, F
Not an unreasonable argument at all. Well put.

The Ukrainians also have the memory of the Holodomor and what Stalin's regime did....they haven't forgotten.
sarabee1995 · 26-30, F
... because truth is the first casualty of war, information is hard to find ...
Information is easy to find, but indeed, truth is the first casualty.

I think you know that in my time on active duty, my ordinance was measured in bits and bytes, not caliber or tonnage. Information is, in fact, the most powerful of weapons.

Your measure of popular support measures just that ... popular support ... nothing else. Do you consider the popular side to automatically be the moral side? The just side? Can the majority ever be wrong? These are not easy questions and I don't pretend to have the answer. But they are things I think about.
beckyromero · 36-40, F
In geopolitics, you should judge people by their actions not their words.

Oh, there are many cases in which you can judge people by their words instead of waiting for their actions.

You know what I mean. 😉

(Saw your comment below but couldn't reply; guess whoever you were replying to deleted their comment; one of the quirks of SW's message boards.)
beckyromero · 36-40, F
@Burnley123

I am of course referred to Mein Kampf as well as whatever you would like to call Putin's speeches pining for the reconstitution of the U.S.S.R.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@beckyromero Obviously, you know I think it's ridiculous to compare every other conflict to WW2 (as you frequently do).

I'll bite this time. Hitler's expansionist actions clearly went beyond the official stated aim of overturning the Versailles treaty, while Chamberlain was trying to appease him. So British appeasement of Hitler, kind of proves my point.

Words can match actions, as in Putin's case. Also see Israeli politicians when they are talking to domestic media.

You are a believer in words. It's why you see all American foreign policy actions as righteous and good but ignore the mountain of evidence that indicates the opposite!
beckyromero · 36-40, F
@Burnley123
You are a believer in words. It's why you see all American foreign policy actions as righteous and good but ignore the mountain of evidence that indicates the opposite!

Not all our actions have been righteous. For example, it wasn't a good idea to invade Canada.

My point is that when an adversary warns of doing something harmful, I do believe you need to take them at their word and prepare.

Example:

China says it wants to "re-unify" Taiwan with the mainland, even though the PRC never ruled over Taiwan.

It's better that Taiwan take China at its word rather than wait for China to act first.

It can be applied to non-national conflicts at well.

Many years ago I heard a story about a woman pleading with a 911 dispatcher to send help because her ex had threatened that he was heading over to her place to kill her. The dispatcher's response? "Call us when he gets there."

She never was able to make the call. Because, yes, unfortunately he killed her.
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
Your hypothesis is a bit hinky. Take Ukraine. I am certain that some regions of the country are much more on Ukraine's side than other sides. The east had internationally supervised referendums and the result was 80% in favour of leaving Ukraine. That Western Ukraine would oppose that seems rather natural. On the other hand many Israeli soldiers are not reporting for duty. Hmmm
MrBrownstone · 46-50, M
Opposite of what msm says
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@MrBrownstone I don't agree with your politics but I also don't trust the MSM.

In geopolitics, you should judge people by their actions not their words.
Wiseacre · F
HobNoblin · 36-40, M
Ukies clearly hate Russians going back a long way. They wouldn't have problems with Russians now if it weren't for Zelensky and NATO.
Northwest · M
How do you judge which side has popular appeal in a war-zone?

The one that the people support???

 
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