White Dudes for Harris, let's do this thing!

@SumKindaMunster

The truth is we don’t know enough to say what most of her policies will be. We do know the truth with Trump, and when compared to Harris, she wins every time.

First and maybe most importantly for me, she has shown herself to be an intelligent, thoughtful, and measured individual who is ethical and moral, and is generally a person of good character. For me that must come first.

She is a social and human rights advocate, one who has been involved in Biden’s economic policies such as the CHIPS Act and the $461 billion in Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, supportive of gun control measures, has worked towards finding a solution for all of us to have healthcare, women to have the right to make their own decisions on abortion, and many other issues related to what is good for all of us as a nation.

That she is a woman and a person of color isn’t issue one, yet it is a point in her favor. While it will enrage a small minority of us, her being voted in as president will send a strong message that we are as a nation evolving and moving away from a racist patriarchy.

She is also who, unless something unforeseen happens, the only person who will oppose the disaster who is Trump, Project 2025, moving away from NATO and a host of other issues, at the ballot box. That will be a win for the majority of us.

In the end, only time will tell, but her history, who she is as a person, and what matters to her bodes well for a successful term in the White House and positive things to come for our nation. Something that can't be said for her opponent.

@Ontheroad Thank you for your sincere and thoughtful reply.

I think your first line is most telling:
I think you are a loyal Democrat and would vote for whomever they propped up no matter what. That's fine, but I caution you about sitting in your bubble and making identity politics the crux of your pitch. I absolutely and wholeheartedly reject the identity politics/oppression olympics run by the left. She's a rich privileged person who was handed most of her accomplishments. Being racially diverse doesn't take away from that fact. I wish more people could see she is rich and connected, that's her primary demographic, not her race or gender. She lazily assumes the privileges of a Woman, Black person, or POC depending on what is most advantageous to her.

I would think about how you are going to reach middle class retirees in the rust belt for her candidacy. It's likely to be another close election and will probably come down to 2-3 states making the difference.

On that note, you should stop reflexively assuming what the Democrats and media say about Trump is true. He's disavowed any interest in Project 2025. If you want to be accurate and reach people you might want to consider that.

@SumKindaMunster I am, particularly at this juncture in time, loyal to what I believe and see as what is best for our nation.

That the Democratic Party represents what I think is best for our country, has me supporting them and their candidates, but not all of them, and I do vote down ballot for some Republicans.

There remains a solid core of Republicans I can agree with on certain issues and there always has been, but they have little power at the moment.

I am and always have been (for a good part of my adult life), a liberal-thinking person, but have never tied myself to any party.

I don't blindly believe the media, nor do I blindly believe any party, but when I hear someone in politics say they have no knowledge of X, Y, or Z, and see who is involved with that issue are close allies and supporters of the politician, I know there is some lying going on... or the politician is rather ignorant, probably willfully so.

Both are true of Trump, and after going through the long list of those involved in and supporting Project 2025, I know I'm right.

@Ontheroad So here's a chart of what voters care about by degree of importance. As I am sure you can see, race relations and other identity political concerns don't rate. The top 3 are the Economy, healthcare and illegal immigration. You think Harris can distinguish herself here?


In my opinion, she needs to latch onto a "pet" issue and make it her thing. Maybe abortion or legalizing marijuana might get people interested in voting for her.

I'd like to point out here that I am engaging and discussing things with you in a relevant manner, and considering your viewpoints.

It didn't escape my attention that you immediately shut down any talk of Trump with:


That attitude ain't gonna get you far. You might want to consider practicing empathy for Trump supporters.

@SumKindaMunster

Let me start with this: "I know I'm right". That is in reference to Project 2025, and Trump saying he doesn't know anything about it. What I said is what I know, and what is clear... just read who is involved with it and drafted the Project.

He is either willfully ignorant or lying.

As for practicing empathy for Trump supporters. I can and do on certain issues his supporters are adamant about, even in part agree with them on certain issues. For instance, I agree our border policies and laws are a mess. I am also a supporter of the 2nd Amendment, but it needs rules, and limits, and there needs to be controls. The economy is another issue I agree with them on... the economy and spending. We need a (somewhat) balanced budget. There are other issues I agree with the Republicans on... and so do most Democrats.

It isn't that we don't agree, it's how we get there. Negotiation is the way you get there, not refusing to talk about it if I agree with you. Sorry, but you are not the majority and you don't get your way with negotiation.

I will say I don't and won't do Trump. Period. He is a non-starter. No negotiating. That is true for the vast majority of liberals.

And now I have to run... I'll address the rest of it later.

@Ontheroad Ok, thank you. So my next question to you is what are Harris's positions and ideas for the issues you mentioned? The border. The 2nd amendment. The economy.

So far all we have is she isn't Biden or Trump.....but neither is RFK, Jill Stein, or Cornell West. That and her race and gender.

What's in it for a middle aged White guy looking to retire in 12 years?

@SumKindaMunster

I think it's clear what her position is on the border... that stemming the tide of undocumented immigrants isn't going to be resolved with walls and hate. That we need to better understand the root causes, humanely treat those immigrants, speed up the process for adjudicating applications for entry/asylum, cut the numbers coming in and threat those here ethically... and, most importantly, encourage Congress to act on immigration laws and policies and properly fund the entire immigration system.

I think... no, I know she is in favor of more regulatory control over gun ownership. I don't see her as being against the 2nd Amendment, but I do see her as one who will work towards sensible measures over who can purchase, reg flag controls, registration, and fine-tuning the entire process. I don't see her as a radical on the issue, but more a person who knows guns are part of a much broader issue and not THE issue. She is also a person who is willing to learn and is able to change her views as more information becomes available.

The economy issue is a tough one, one a president (any president) struggles with, but her involvement with Biden's policies and actual results bodes well for the country. Key in what she goes for and gets done is who she brings on board as advisors and finding a way to get Congress moving.

That's really our country's biggest problem. Congress has become a place where little gets done. Somehow we need to get the radicals out of Congress, or at least shut them up... that goes for both sides, but honestly, more so on the conservative side.

What's in it for a white guy looking to retire in 12 years? That depends heavily on what that guy has done to position himself for retirement.

@Ontheroad
Boooo! BOOOOOOO!

Close the Southern Border. Our generous asylum system is broken and being used against us. End it. Setup refugee camps on the Mexico border and process and help these people BEFORE they get into our country and disappear. If you and other soft hearted people want to travel down there, to the border and legally assist these people with earning their citizenship, I will not stop you. This is absolutely a non starter for me, and the number 1 reason I would vote for Trump.


That's fine. I support the 2nd amendment but believe gun ownership should be limited to responsible adults.


So wait and see...


So I have been paying into the SS since I was 16 years old. I better get that money, and you can rest assured I will be one of those senior citizen voters voting for this every time.

Is Harris going to expand the capital gains taxes? Reduce them? I'd like to know this because I also have substantial investments that I don't feel like paying out the ass for so people like you can fund open borders.

@SumKindaMunster I have no problem with setting up refugee centers on the border, but Mexico has something to say about doing it on their side... you know, it is their country and not ours. Should we invade Mexico? Tell me, how does that work and who pays for it?

No, it isn't a wait and see, look at recent history and what Biden and she have done. @SumKindaMunster

No president sets the capital gains tax rate. That is done by Congress. However, let's say she goes with what Biden proposed - an increase in Capital Gains Tax for those making more than one million a year on their gains. It won't matter unless Congress approves it and you make over a million a year.

@Ontheroad I'm fine with setting up the supposed refugee camps on American soil. The point is to end the open border and stop allowing illegals to walk in and disapear into our country. How do we pay for anything? You really expect me to think we have limited resources here when we've sent $175 BILLION dollars to Ukraine?

So you are saying that Biden's economic policies are Harris's as well? Did she announce that?

Good call on the actual responsibility for the Capital gains tax. It IS Congress who determines that. However, past Presidents, including Biden, have called for an increase in the Capital gains tax, so my question regarding Harri's policy on this is appropriate based on your challenge regarding my retirement.

@SumKindaMunster I have no problem with stemming the tide of immigrants allowed in pending vetting and their day in court. We do need to streamline the process, hire sufficient judges to hear the cases, and provide decent holding centers.

We have I think something like 5 appropriations passed for something like $175 billion, but have sent no where near that amount... it's a phased-in, as available and when able promise.

And once again, I have to run... dealing with my ex and ex MIl who is on her deathbed. I'll catch up later.

@Ontheroad I'm sorry to hear that. Please don't feel like you need to respond to me if you are dealing with something personal. Hope it all goes well.

@SumKindaMunster I enjoy our little talks... I'm always up for hearing from someone who has something intelligent to say. Plus, I learn from you and I have to think when talking to you... both good things.

I am often mystified by the whole rant over illegal immigrants. They comprise such a small percentage (around .03 percent) of our population. They commit far less crime per capita and as a cost to the U.S. taxpayer, cost far, far less than a citizen costs the taxpayer. An undocumented immigrant is estimated to cost us less than $70k over their lifetime, while a citizen costs us $19.5k per year. I often feel like it's a whole lot of commotion over essentially nothing.

Still, I do agree it is something we need to deal with, but it will never rise to the importance (for me) of making me decide on who I will vote for. Then again I'm not and never have been a single-issue voter.

We do need a quota system that takes into account the need for immigrant workers both seasonal and permanent, and that can accommodate our share of those seeking asylum. That system needs to be well thought out and Congress needs to act and pass legislation, leaving the president only the authority to intervene in case of a war/national emergency declared by Congress.

As for SS, it shouldn't be a person's main means of income when they retire, which means our economy needs to stay healthy so there are good-paying jobs that allow people to save/invest for their retirement. To do that we need a whole revamp of the education system, including providing for advanced (4-year degree as well as vocational) education for all.

Our economy is tied to all that we do, all that we are or aren't, foreign policy, immigration, and on and on. No president can take that on and do a whole lot with it. Not directly and not in 4 to 8 years.

@Ontheroad Thank you. I noted that you took my challenge to respond to me seriously and can see you are demonstrating that with your behavior. That takes character and I respect you for it. ✊

I'm not sure your figures on illegal immigrants(and thanks for using that term) are accurate. What I do know is that MILLIONS of people have crossed our border illegally, cynically using our generous asylum program to get in, then disappearing into the country. We have massive amounts of sex trafficking, illegal drugs, and criminal gangs all crossing uncontested.

All over this country, right now, are tent cities of homeless people everywhere. Anchorage Alaska has a homeless problem. Casper Wyoming has a homeless problem. It's ridiculous and a slap in the face to the citizens of America living in these conditions watching illegals walk right past them to shelters and aid from our generous country. We can't take care of the people we have, but we want to bring in millions more? How does that make sense?

It only makes sense when you realize that its beneficial to both parties...cheap votes for the Democrats...cheap labor for the Republicans. All over the Western world, the citizens have been complaining about the amount of immigration being allowed into their countries. It's the reason Trump was elected in 2016. It's the reason the UK left the EU. Don't you think its time to resolve this issue once and for all?

I can agree to this:


As for this:


Really? A lot of people do. Personally I agree and have not been sitting around counting on the government. But I know a lot of people who live solely on SS benefits.


I think its doable. We have to want to make the change though. Again, close the Southern border, restrict immigration and setup refugee camps. I guarantee you, GUARANTEE that would slow the tide of people trying to come over the border. If its hard a lot of people wont' even bother.

@SumKindaMunster



I get my numbers from DOJ, Department of State, Homeland Security/ICE, other federal and in so far as possible, partisan NGO sources... all what I call factual sources, never from the news media, X, FB or other social media.

This is what the DOJ, Drug Intelligence Center says about drug smuggling (verbatim quote):

"Mexican DTOs dominate the transportation of illicit drugs across the Southwest Border. They typically use commercial trucks and private and rental vehicles to smuggle cocaine, marijuana, methamphetamine, and heroin through the 25 land POEs"

In other words, they mostly use ports of entry and do so right under the nose of our Border Protection folks. They don't provide a breakdown of percentages, but the majority of illegal drugs are driven right by agents at border crossings.


Sex trafficking statistics:

"According to the 2023 Trafficking in Persons Report, 63% of clients served by DOJ grantees were US citizens or lawful permanent residents, 31% were foreign nationals, and 6% had an unknown status"

These "foreign nationals". the lessor number, were primarily Mexican and Asian and came in through ports of entry and across the deserts, but mostly, again, they drove or flew rights past our border control people.

What I'm getting at is that first and foremost, the real problem is the user, and the vast majority of users of those trafficked and illegal drugs, are U.S. citizens. As long as they are used, there will be drugs and humans smuggled in.

Yes, we need to do all we can to stop it at our borders, but walls and immigration limits on numbers won't do anything to stop it. Given that, I still maintain that our focus is on the wrong thing, and voting for someone who doesn't get the complexities of the problem isn't going to get you anywhere. Walls won't do squat, other than to get votes and cost the taxpayer billions (better spent on the real root issues/causes).

For me, Trump is a hammer and everything he sees is a nail. That won't work, everything we are talking about is complex and needs a thinking, intelligent person leading the pack to get anything of substance done.

And now I need to run... back later.

@SumKindaMunster


I don't disagree, we must do something, and kicking the can down the road in Congress isn't it. This needs to be a qualifying factor in who we vote for to fill both houses.

Still, just focusing on the hammer and nail approach won't fix anything, or very little, I can GUARANTEE that. Also, unless it's a bona fide national emergency, the president, any president, needs to have strict parameters put on them.

As for Social Security… I know many people have but one source of income for their retirement, and it’s social security. The fix is, again, for Congress to act. It has zip to do with the president.

The real answer is raising the withholding tax and taking caps off the uberwealthy. It is a solid system and we need to keep it solvent into the future. For every cost of living increase in benefits, we have to find an offset to generate more income. The bottom line, an increase in the withholding amount for SS is the solution.

If we had done this when we knew trouble was brewing, it could have been a tiny increase and there would be no problem. Congress has failed us again.

Also, employers need to chip in a higher amount, like something equal to what the employee is paying (as it has been), plus 5%.

@Ontheroad So I'm not really sure I buy those stats. See link below for a LONG discussion about how the actual amount of people crossing the border is a complex number, constantly in flux and related to how you choose to define your terms:

https://www.factcheck.org/2024/02/breaking-down-the-immigration-figures/


While I agree with that, that's irrelevant in my mind to whether or not we close the border. I don't see how closing off an avenue for drug trafficking is bad simply because addicts will continue to use regardless.


Walls actually do make a difference. If you want a very clear and vivid example, look at the amount of suicide bombers who were prevented from attacking the Israeli's after they built their wall. Did the Berlin wall keep people from crossing into the West? Did the Great wall of China keep out invaders? Of course they did.

They do help and I strongly suggest you research that a bit further before you make that claim again. It's ridiculous. We would absolutely reduce the amount of illegal immigration into this country by building a physical barrier. It's common sense.


And my response to that is...at least Trump is willing to try and do something. This really isn't hard or expensive at all, its just that the leaders of our world WANT open borders and 3rd world immigration into the Western nations. It is one of their signature initiatives and has been going on for over 30 years now. The citizens of the West want it to stop, now. Again, if this was resolved, I feel very strongly a lot of people would stop supporting the right wing. As it stands they are the only ones even willing to consider it, otherwise its dismissed as racist or anti-Semitic.


I don't have a problem with this, but you will need to be prepared to offer some concessions like adding fraud prevention or restricting non US citizens from being able to get SS benefits if you want this to pass.

@SumKindaMunster

I am in agreement with the idea that we need to deal with illegal immigrants. I also agree the wall would stop some illegals.

If we use your numbers (from fact check), that is about a net of 400,000 over about 3 years. Of that,400,000 about half would have been stopped or slowed by a wall. The other half comes in at ports of entry and drive right by BP agents.

The wall's estimated cost was $11 billion (and estimates for government contracts ALWAYS balloon rather dramatically), so just the initial cost would end up being closer to $15-20 billion).

At let's say $15 billion, I don't see the return on the investment as a wise move. If that was the total cost to stop illegals, then okay, but it isn't, won't be, and can't be.

The walls you spoke of were: 1. In ancient times (Great Wall of China) and stopped armies, not the few who wanted to sneak in, and 2. In the more modern era walls were closely guarded and the penalty was death (shot down without question) for trying to cross them.

That is not the purpose of Trump's wall, nor are we going to kill those who do make it over them.

Never mind the global diplomatic issues a wall creates.

Also, nobody has asked for an open border, nobody, so let's stop using that. That is and always has been a non-starter. Yes, there is a desire for third-world immigrants, mostly for humanitarian reasons, but not without restraint/limits. Let's stop making those claims too.

"Nobody" equals sane folks, not the odd crackpots here and there.

I want and we need controlled immigration and zero illegals coming in. I believe we can get there and a wall is wasted money and effort in that regard.

Add that to the fact that Trump would overall be bad for the country, and I can't get to the point where him as president is any wiser than the wall.

Put it to Congress, tell every last member of Congress they will be voted out if they don't, in their next session, pass initial and substantial legislation to give us a start to a total solution in the next 8 years.

Most of the nation and most of Trump's wall supporters didn't know squat about illegal immigration 8 years ago.

The wall is a political tool (votes for Trump), a band-aid, and only a temporary slowing of illegals that is and will continue to be ridiculously expensive.

Social Security: Totally agree with needing fraud controls. Totally agree that illegals should not get a penny from SS funds.

@Ontheroad I feel like the cost to protect and close the southern border is irrelevant. We spend a ridiculous amount of money on complete nonsense so I find this argument unconvincing. We can easily spend the money to secure the southern border.

Honestly, if the whole "wall" thing is objectionable, then I am open to other technologies to again, prevent people from crossing the southern border unfettered. It could be anything. Drones, robots, soldiers whatever.

The walls I spoke of served their demonstrable purposes. They kept people from crossing the divide. My point here is that wall work, otherwise they wouldn't be built.


Dude, please. We are funding Israel's massacre of the Palestinians and have psychotically expanded and extended the war between Ukraine and Russia. How is this going to hurt our reputation more? Ultimately I don't care what other countries think, we do what we want, consequences be damned.


I know...I know. Congress is a bunch of feckless cowards. They don't do shit unless the entire party agrees it should be done. A President using the bully pulpit to push Congress to make the needed changes is helpful....Congress can get off its lazy ass and pass laws that prevent the President from taking action...or they can fix it on their own...


I don't believe that. That's political propaganda.

@SumKindaMunster I think we've reached a point where we have to agree to disagree. We can go on and on doing the point, counterpoint thing, but our basic views on how we get from point A to B aren't going to change.

I'll end discussing this issue by saying if it rises to the level of importance that it is a single issue for who we put in place as a president, then I'll point out the failure of the Republican party in the Senate to even consider talking about HR 815 and leave it there.