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Is Britain a managed democracy?

If leftwing people are not allowed any part in the body politics, then I really think it is.

Diane Abbott, Britain's first black female member of parliament alleges that she is being banned from standing as an MP.. The original justification for her suspension was not nothing. She sent in email form the first draft of an article to a newspaper that said Jewish people could experience prejudice but not racism. I don't agree with this at all and she has since apologised but the real reason that she is being forced out is that she is on the left of the Labour Party.

This is the most high profile example of an ongoing purge by Keir Starmer and his people to remove anyone to the left of say - Tony Blair - from being a Labour representative. Left candidates have been barred from standing and existing MPs deselected. Jamie Driscoll was removed as Tyneside mayoral candidate and the leader of Compass was suspended from the party. Breaking news is that Faiza Shaheen has been removed as MP candidate for liking a tweet saying Israel committed genocide and Lloyd russell-moyle has been barred from standing due to an eight year old accusation. Other examples are too numerous to mention though the pattern is clear.

When the Romans sacked Carthage, the killed everyone they could find, burned every building and sewed salt into the earth so nothing could ever be grown again. Under cover of media underreporting, Starmer and the labour right has should the same level of professional diligence.

What goes on within the Labour Party does impact the country. The purging of corbynite (and parts of the soft left) goes in tandem with a rightward policy shift that forecloses the possibility of any change from the post thatcher economic consensus. Accept Tory tax spending and borrowing plans. Natalie Elfick is welcome in the Labour Party but not Diane Abbott.

"Things can only get better," people say, knowing echoing the D-Ream song and 97 anthem. But things can't and that is the point of all of this. The Blair government presided over a period of economic growth and though (I can heavily critique their record) they were able to do some good without rocking the boar. Now, we have an incoming government that accepts Tory economic orthodoxy in a time of economic turmoil. The rich will be protected, as will the upper middle class but everyone else will see zero benefits. This will be like the experience of the Cameron and Osborne government. What are you going to do, vote Tory? That is the choice: there isn't one. The tie changed colour but the outcome is the same.

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ArtieKat · M

@Burnley123 As you know, I've always respected your principled stance, although disagreeing with your fundamental beliefs. The dilemma for the Labour Party is that the majority of Britons don't want a socialist government. Starmer has recognised this in the way that Blair did - I was full of optimism when John Smith died and Blair was elected leader: someone only 2 months older than me was going to be prime minister..... . And we all know the adage "Power corrupts.." Starmer is hungry for power - at any cost: to make Labour electable. That is the reality, and no matter how many Student Union Debating Society motions are put, the Left are not appealing to the aspirational hoi polloi

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Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@ArtieKat It's not just taking the party in a different direction. It's also removing the left from public life.

Weirdly, I'm more leftwing now than in my twenties. I came to the realisation that the mainstream of what is politically acceptable doesn't have the answers and worked outwards from there. It is what it is.

ArtieKat · M

@Burnley123

I'm more leftwing now than in my twenties

You've told me of your journey before

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@ArtieKat I won't bore you then. 😜

ArtieKat · M

@Burnley123 It's not boring - perhaps I could have been more tactful in the way I reminded you lol

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@ArtieKat Nah, you saved me writing an essay.

22Michelle · 70-79, T

@ArtieKat I only gotcsobfar into your post before fundamentally disagreeing. The idea that the UK doesnt want a Socialist Government is easily disproven by looking at voting figurs. In virtually every GE votes for left / centre left parties are greater than far right / centre right parties. The problem is that under FPTP we get a result that doesnt equate to the majority of votes. If we had PR then we'd have left leaning coalition Government's.

ArtieKat · M

@22Michelle If you want to provide me with your figures I'll be happy to scrutinise them. I've not even heard @Burnley123 make similar claims.

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@22Michelle Where did I say that the public wanted a socialist government? I didn't. Sigh.

The main advocate of PR within labour is Neal Lawson, director of the centre-left Compass think tank. He's been suspended and threatened with expulsion for liking a tweet.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/30/labour-expelling-mp-activist-neal-lawson

I think centre left people outside labour are very naive about what is happening.

22Michelle · 70-79, T

@ArtieKat just Google the votes cast in any GE. The Conservatives win so often gecause they have been the sole right wing party. The left vote is spread over several parties therefore FPTP gives them a massive advantage.

ArtieKat · M

@22Michelle You made the claim, it's up to you substantiate it. As @Burnley123 himself said - he's never made any such claims, and I respect him for his honesty

22Michelle · 70-79, T

@ArtieKat https://www.statista.com/statistics/717004/general-elections-vote-share-by-party-uk/

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@22Michelle I don't doubt that. Fwiw, I'm also in favour of pr. It's not what I said that.

My main claim in all of this is to say Starmer's Labour is not centre left.

ArtieKat · M

@22Michelle Thanks for that - but the figures don't really support

The idea that the UK doesnt want a Socialist Government is easily disproven by looking at voting figurs.

There is no way that you can claim that the Labour Party under Tony Blair (or Gordon Brown) was Socialist - one only has to look at the rollout of PPI. Very slightly left-of-centre - there's no denying he made Labour electable again (before getting mired in the "power corrupts" syndrome.

22Michelle · 70-79, T

@ArtieKat whilst I would agree that the Blair Government wasn't fully socialist it has to be realised that fod the majority of voters the Labour party whether under Blair, Brown or Starmer is still seen as a left wing party. In the same way the Conservatives are still seen by many as a centre right party, and not tge extreme right party is has morphed into. Does the UK want a fully socialist Government, probably not. Does it want an extreme right party in Government, again no, but it voted for that, even though it was only the FPTP system that delivered them the majority of seats. And yes, I know that is the system we are stuck with, and virtually every Government since WW2 has been voted in on a minority of the votes cast. And again I would point out that there has only been one right wing party in UK politics, though we now have the rise of the Reform party, which has taken over from UKIP, and is taking votes from the Conservatives. The figures on voting don't lie. The majority of UK don't vote for right wing parties.

ArtieKat · M

@22Michelle I think that we are done here.

22Michelle · 70-79, T

@ArtieKat I think you are.

ArtieKat · M

@22Michelle I can pride myself on maintaining an open mind.

22Michelle · 70-79, T

@ArtieKat Doesn't seem like that to me, but each to their own.

ArtieKat · M

@22Michelle Because I don't buy into your spurious claim of Blair's government being socialist, you think you can insult me?

22Michelle · 70-79, T

@ArtieKat I diin't say that Blair's Government was socialist. I merely pointed out that it was part sicialist. More importantly, and pertinent, is that it was voted in because it was seen as being left wing. I prefer the description of left wing as it seems far too many socialists are far too hung up on their own ideal of socialist purity. Most Governments disappoint unfortunately, but that doesn't nean that they weren't voted in on the basis of how voters perceived them to be. Further, let's be honest UK politucs ux usually a case of people voting against the Conservatives or Labour, rather than voting for the party they want, which is another reason we need PR. And in most UK GE's in recent memory the majority tend to vote against the Conservatives.
And maybe you need to be a little less sensitive, especially as you claim to havexan open mind.

ArtieKat · M

@22Michelle

it was seen as being left wing.

Bollocks. You make up these assertions and your position keeps on shifting to try and justify your partisanship.

22Michelle · 70-79, T

@ArtieKat What partisanship? Sorry I'm not pure enough for you, but reality is far too manyvdo indeed vote either against a party or vote for what they perceive a party to be, regardless of what that party may now actually represent.

ArtieKat · M

@22Michelle Pure waffle. You need to learn to differentiate between - for example - Centre-Left and Left-Wing.

22Michelle · 70-79, T

@ArtieKat Thatsyour opinion, and my opinion is you can't deal with anyone who questions your views, so no point in continuing what has never actually been a debate.

ArtieKat · M

@22Michelle

you can't deal with anyone who questions your views

You have no idea whatsoever what my views are - beyond the fact that I enjoy goading ignorant people who think they are intellectuals, but aren't patient or equipped enough to proof-read what they've written.

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