What happened to politics?

@BohoBabe That's absolutely part of the increasing division indeed. I don't think Liberals, or Conservatives for that matter, don't understand this though.

@NerdyPotato The person in that video certainly didn't understand. It seems like most Liberals don't.

@BohoBabe I think she made it pretty clear that homelessness (as an example) is a problem for everyone.

@NerdyPotato I mean that she doesn't understand Conservatism, in that it's an ideology based on increasing poverty. Though I do give her credit for at least noticing that the Right isn't even trying to end poverty.

@BohoBabe yeah, she's spot on about the core issue.

@BohoBabe I mean there are liberals and liberals. Some are better than others. I've seen some of the US liberals here argue against current US policy on Gaza.

I think the biggest distinction between liberals and leftists is the understanding of power structures. Liberals have a Rawlsian optimism that state institutions are a force for good (or at least are in 'normal' circumstances.)

Leftists have a (correctly) cynical view if how power operates because we have an analysis of class power and also imperialism. Debates on NATO really show that vividly.

@Burnley123 Liberals in the modern or American sense perhaps. Liberals in the true or historical sense are suspicious of the state (though not for the same reasons as leftists) and seek to limit state influence - not that there are many of us around at the moment!

@MartinII Yeah, classical liberals, neo liberals etc. I was talking more in the centre left sense.

@Burnley123
When it comes to Gaza, I've always said the problem is establishment politician Liberals. Working-class Liberals have actually been really good on Gaza. Most of them are lifelong supporters of Israel, but are now demanding an end to the genocide

@BohoBabe It isn't genocide. Genocide is what Hamas and Iran want. You can say a thing a hundred times, but it still won't be true.

@MartinII How exactly would you define genocide?

@BohoBabe You gave me your definition earlier, which I agreed with.

@MartinII So then how isn't this a genocide?
And please don't say something like, there aren't any gas chambers. A genocide doesn't have to look exactly like the Holocaust to be a genocide. The Holodomor used hunger to exterminate people, that was also a genocide.

@BohoBabe Israel is targeting Hamas, not any ethnic or religious group. Every single civilian casualty in Gaza is the responsibility of Hamas. Grow up, and look in the mirror.

@MartinII Israel is targeting every person in Gaza. Not just Hamas, but also civilians and even Israeli hostages. Next argument please.

@MartinII Israel is keeping humanitarian aid out of Gaza. Palestinians are starving to death. How is that targeting Hamas?
Israel told Palestinians that Rafah is a safe zone, then the moment they got there, the IDF started bombing Rafah. How is that targeting Hamas?


I've been asking this question ever since the Palestinian Genocide started. So far, nobody has given me a straight answer. Let's see if you can.

There are a lot of school-shootings in America. Next time one occurs, should our military bomb the school? Hundreds of children will be killed, but we'd almost certainly stop the shooter.

@Burnley123
Yeah, that's how it is in America too. The Democrats are totally in support of Israel, but the Democrat voters agree that Israel has gone too far.

@BohoBabe Please listen. There is no genocide, except that wished by Hamas and its allies and funders. Hamas deliberately organises things in Gaza so that its people are "protected " by civilians. You know perfectly well what genocide means, and you know perfectly well that the actions of the IDF and the Israeli government are not genocide. Your analogy with school shootings illustrates the point perfectly. Obviously there is no genocide involved there. The question is how the authorities should deal with the perpetrator. Just the same in Gaza. In my view the Israeli policy is entirely justified from a moral point of view (whether from a strategic point of view I'm not so sure). However, I quite understand and respect those who take a different view. What I do not respect is the allegation that Israeli policy involves genocide, which is quite simply a lie. Stop using the word genocide, or use it where it applies, as in the case of Hamas, and we could have a friendly conversation!

@MartinII how is bombing civilians when no Hamas member is anywhere near not a genocide? Just answer that simple question.

@Burnley123 What evidence do you have that public opinion is against Israel? Muslims and the left are, no-one else I know of.

@MartinII thanks for your honesty about being delusional. Blocked.

@MartinII So do you see how you totally ignored my question? This is why I don't think you're being honest.

Let's try this again. There are a lot of school-shootings in America. Next time one occurs, should our military bomb the school? Hundreds of children will be killed, but we'd almost certainly stop the shooter.