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Regarding the protests on U.S. colleges and universities nationwide, there are two things Pro-Palestinian activists can do

1. Stop proving the point people have that antisemitism is a problem within the movement. And yes I know that there are Jewish students in the Pro-Palestinian movement showing their solidarity for Gaza who say they haven't been mistreated but that doesn't make the situation any better. From students or even non students (as their faces are hidden), threatening Jewish students with many more October 7ths while ironically calling them "Nazi B*tches", to them being ridiculed, harassed, and even blamed for a war/conflict they have no control over that's in the middle east, students who are apart of the Pro-Palestinian movement should reflect on if antisemitism is something they truly support and excluding those who go out of their way to target their Jewish peers.

2. Realize that sympathizing with Hamas gets them nowhere. Whether you accept it or not, what Hamas did was horrific, how Hamas treats its own civilians is horrific, from some of these activists chanting "Hamas We love you. We support your rockets to" or yelling "We are all Hamas" to passerbys doesn't help their cause. It's a question of, do you want Palestine to truly be free or do you want Hamas to continue being a nuance?

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Burnley123 · 41-45, M

This is a total masterclass of the cherry picker logical fallacy.

Pick the worse examples of behaviour that can be found and make it representative of an entire movement.

Meanwhile, actual genocide and ethnic cleansing is going on. The people doing that are no doubt happy with the likes of yourself.

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CountScrofula · 41-45, M

@Burnley123 The actual issue isn't the genocide, it's the way people complain about it.

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@CountScrofula Exactly.

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CountScrofula · 41-45, M

@Human1000 See these kinds of absurd leaps make me wonder how you can communicate about anything with other human beings. You're applying a few "therefores" here and wildly assuming positions he hasn't taken.

Like I can make the same kind of simple-minded declarative statements and accuse you of being a genocidal racist.

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AthrillatheHunt · 51-55, M

@Burnley123 you just described the meaning of patriarchy. Take a few highly successful men , and attribute all they have to every man.

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Human1000 · 51-55, M

@CountScrofula Said the guy who cheers wealthy people dying. You have no credibility.

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@Human1000 I do troll but not about things so serious. I take it you are actually serious.

"How are Jewish kids supposed to have their grievances addresses?"

Like I think they shouldn't be addressed. Really?

I have accused the Israeli government of advocating genocide, yes. And I stand by that but I don't make any accusations lightly.

Human1000 · 51-55, M

@Burnley123 Yes, what should happen to a protester, a student, who makes an antisemitic statement during a protest. Let’s stipulate we agree it’s antisemitic.

Do we remove them from the protest? What interim step is reasonable?

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@Human1000 Their behaviour should be treated as a racist incident.

If it's unwitting use of tropes due to lack of knowledge, then given warning s and education.

If it's a celebration of the holocaust then kicked out of college and criminal charges.

Why would one assume I'd think differently?

Human1000 · 51-55, M

@Burnley123 Fair enough, but my question was about interim steps.

Should that person be allowed to continue making such statements, or would student due process be required to be completed, which would take months, before they were removed by force from a protest?

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@Human1000 University admin procedures are not my area of work expertise and you are asking for a high degree of specificity.

I believe that people get suspended pending investigation for serious accusations. Proof is needed to expel a student, as it should be.

The Colombia students have been suspended for doing a loud protest that caused minor disruption on university property. This is not antisemitism.

Human1000 · 51-55, M

@Burnley123 Sounds good. Only theoretical of course, as the two sides would not agree what constitutes antisemitism.

Further, a standard, created by the Universities, is about feelings of safety and inclusion, not per se racism. I’d be glad to do away with this new standard so long as it applies to everyone on campus.

Puppycat23 · F

@Burnley123 I could have cherry picked the movement, left out the bad parts and you wouldn’t have said anything. Anyway, complain all you want, what’s mentioned is something that happens that should be addressed and fixed.

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@Puppycat23 You don't understand my point or are pretending not to. You could engage with what the majority thinks or the best arguments but instead, you are trying to delegitimise an entire political movement (and cause) by deliberately choosing to represent its worst aspects as being ra reflection of the whole. It isn't. I have been on these demos and marched with Jewish people and Muslims.

A militarised state committing genocide also needs to be called out and fixed. Though by choosing to focus on the things you do, it avoids uncomfortable questions about a human tragedy and your government's complicity in it. If the people calling that out are bad people, then the cause must be wrong, yeah? As I've said to others, its long been a tactic of the pro-Israel lobby and pro-Israel politicians to accuse any dissenting voices of anti-Semitism. No matter how anti-racist you are, how well-intentioned you are or how careful you are with your arguments: If you criticise Israel, someone will call you an anti-semite.

I only ask that you think about all of this.

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@Human1000 [quote]Only theoretical of course, as the two sides would not agree what constitutes antisemitism.[/quote]

Yes, the definitions are highly contested. It is hard to separate the political from the personal here.

[quote]Further, a standard, created by the Universities, is about feelings of safety and inclusion, not per se racism.[/quote]

Indeed. Tbf, I have never been much of a fan of safe space culture when it comes to politics. I "people feeling uncomfortable," is the standard then nobody can say anything ever. I appreciate that its founded on wanting to include minorities but you run into problems when it comes to free-speech and clashes of values.

Human1000 · 51-55, M

@Burnley123 I was too harsh earlier to you. My apologies.

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@Human1000 Accepted. We all have bad days.

Puppycat23 · F

@Burnley123

[quote]you are trying to delegitimise an entire political movement (and cause) by deliberately choosing to represent its worst aspects as being ra reflection of the whole.
[/quote]

The ones with the antisemitic and pro hamas attitude are the people who are delegitimising the movement. I’m making an observation and what I think should be done about it. It’s not like this is something that happened once. it would be naive to think that there aren’t others with the same mindsets mentioned above using their anti-Israel/ antizionist stance as an excuse to target people who have nothing to do with what’s going on the other side of the world.

[quote]As I've said to others, its long been a tactic of the pro-Israel lobby and pro-Israel politicians to accuse any dissenting voices of anti-Semitism.[/quote]

Where’s the tactic when you’ve got some Jewish students filming random strangers on campus telling them to go back to Poland during the rally.

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@Puppycat23 [quote]The ones with the antisemitic and pro hamas attitude are the people who are delegitimising the movement.[/quote]

OK. Now show me what I should do about this. Apart from publically calling it out: which I already do and will continue to do so (not to impress you but because it's repugnant). The rest of the movement will continue to do the same and continue to be ignored and hostile media will keep sharing those bad examples. Also, show me a political movement that is ethically perfect and has no bad apples that have ever attached themselves to it. Name any political movement you like. I await with bated breath.

[quote]Where’s the tactic[/quote]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/feb/11/denouncing-critics-of-israel-as-un-jews-or-antisemites-is-a-perversion-of-history

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/24/us/netanyahu-israel-us-college-protests.html

https://www.wrmea.org/israel-palestine/to-silence-critics-of-israel-the-term-anti-semitism-is-being-trivialized.html

I could have used mountains of other sources. Calling your opponents anti-Semitic is tactic 101 for Netanyahu and his supporters. Also, the Israeli state for a loooooong time.

Puppycat23 · F

@Burnley123

[quote]OK. Now show me what I should do about this.[/quote]

Cancel them. Remove any person with antisemitic remarks or pro hamas ideologies from the rally.

[quote]I could have used mountains of other sources.[/quote]

That’s more focused on people who criticize the Israeli government aside from actual antisemitic attacks. students filming or recalling their altercations with others shouting antisemitic remarks or chants at them isn’t a tactic. Those shouting those remarks weren’t criticizing Israel in that moment, they made themselves be known who they are.

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@Puppycat23 You're not engaging with the arguments I've made and this is deliberate.

Again, name one political movement that was ethically perfect and didn't have some bad people who attached themselves to it.

trollslayer · 46-50, M

@Burnley123 i couldnt have phrased it better myself.

Puppycat23 · F

@Burnley123

[quote]Again, name one political movement that was ethically perfect and didn't have some bad people who attached themselves to it. [/quote]

There are none that are perfect. That’s why I didn’t answer until now. So because of that, why get pressed when someone criticizes the pro-Palestinian movement?

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