Ocasio-Cortez won't call Gaza war a genocide, another lying politician

@ElwoodBlues In Trump's head, this could all be true. We know what we know, and we can sometimes know more than others. He also uses humor. Do you know what Trump doesn't say? That he knows how to run your life better than you do, that he knows what you are capable of more than you do, and that he knows your family more than you do.

When I read and watch the above, I just find it funny. He is so entertaining.

@badlands says [quote] In Trump's head, this could all be true.[/quote]
Which, if true - and it seems to be - illustrates a massive problem. Because Trump thinks he knows more than the experts, he can't accept advice from the experts. He thinks his own instincts are better, and he actually ends up fighting and then firing the experts, leaving himself surrounded by yes-men and yes-women.

And that led directly to bad decision making on the environment, on education, and especially on Covid. Trump spent the first 5 weeks of the pandemic lying about the risks, allowing it to get deeply embedded. That's why, during 2020 we had DOUBLE the per capita death rates of nations like Canada and Germany.

@ElwoodBlues

@ElwoodBlues Who are the experts? Do you think a "scientist" like Fauci should be dictating policy, all policy? Shutting a country down is going to affect everyone. It affects the economy, it affects people going to work, it affects children going to school, and it is morally questionable. Have the people said they want to be locked away in their homes? What about states having the freedom to decide what measures they want, if any?

People like Fauci were certain a pandemic would arrive in the US, and that it would happen under Trump. He said this in 2017.

Trump, like all unknowing parties, didn't know what to make of it. He did have the good sense to know that shutting down the economy is disastrous, stopping children from going to school is wrong, and that keeping Americans in their homes is not what a free country does. To that extent, he was ahead of everyone else, and he remained true to his beliefs. His instincts were right.

Up until 2021, I was going to medical school. Fauci has come far in his career, but he wasn't the president, and the fate of Americans isn't his decision. In trying to force a lasting lockdown, he was getting involved in affairs of no concern to him, and causing more harm than good.

@badlands You said: "Up until 2021, I was going to medical school. Fauci has come far in his career, but he wasn't the president, and the fate of Americans isn't his decision. In trying to force a lasting lockdown, he was getting involved in affairs of no concern to him, and causing more harm than good."

Have you graduated med school yet?

@sree251 No. I got pregnant, didn't get vaccinated, and left.

Here, you don't need an existing degree to study medicine. I have no degree, meaning I am not an "expert."

@badlands asks [quote] Who are the experts? [/quote]
These folks are experts.
[quote]AMA survey shows over 96% of doctors fully vaccinated - Jun 11, 2021 [/quote]
And these folks are experts.
[quote], anthropogenic global warming is accepted by a YUGE segment of the scientific community. Would you accept the consensus opinion of the American Physical Society AND the American Chemical Society? How about the American Association for the Advancement of Science, and at least 15 other national organizations of publishing scientists? See [b]https://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus/[/b] [/quote]

[quote]Trump, like all unknowing parties, didn't know what to make of it.[/quote]
If he didn't know, why did he flog hydroxychloroquine? If he didn't know, why did he flog ivermectin? If he didn't know, why did he suggest injecting disinfectant? If he didn't know, why did he try to make end runs around the epidemiologists and the virologists and the doctors?

[quote] Shutting a country down is going to affect everyone.[/quote]
Somehow, the leadership of Canada achieved HALF our per capita Covid death rate. Likewwise Germany and France. South Korea had an AMAZINGLY low death rate. And these countries weren't afraid to impose lockdowns.

[quote]His instincts were right.[/quote] His "instincts" lead to 275,000 excess American deaths.

All through Trump's term, our Covid per capita death rate was DOUBLE that of countries like Canada & Germany, resulting in about 550,000 Covid deaths under Trump.

If Trump had handled Covid as well as, say, Justin Trudeau, we'd have had 275,000 FEWER DEATHS! Put another way, Trump's mis-management of Covid cost more deaths than THREE Viet Nam wars!! Three Viet Nams in a SINGLE YEAR, not spread out over ten years like the actual war!!!

Sure, Covid came from outside. And different leaders in different countries managed it differently. Trump's piss-poor Covid management is made clear by the relative per capita death rates.

[quote]"I look at it this way," Birx told CNN's Chief Medical Correspondent Sanjay Gupta. "The first time, we have an excuse. There were about 100,000 deaths that came from that original surge. All of the rest of them, in my mind, could have been mitigated or decreased substantially."[/quote]


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Oh, look, sunstroke makes silly claims he can't back up in an attempt to divert away from the facts😂🤣😂🤣

@badlands Ignore these "experts", their numbers show boys are really girls, bees are really fish, straight lines are really curves, the economy is booming, and 2 + 2 = 5

@badlands You said: "No. I got pregnant, didn't get vaccinated, and left."

Jesus Christ! You are a girl? I thought you are a guy and was getting to feel great with you in this chatroom on account of your sound thinking. How come a girl like you have a fair and balanced viewpoint about Trump? You can't be American. Are you a kiwi or what?

@ElwoodBlues Experts on what? Are they experts on your life? What do they know about the economy?

Scientists like Fauci are very wealthy. Physicians earn a good income. When the economy is shut down and there is reduced activity resulting in inevitable damage, they will not be the most affected. Maybe you also haven't been very affected? As a scientist who deals with medical research, Fauci has no place telling the president of the US that he should lock everyone in their homes. Do you know what happens to supply chains when they are disrupted like they were? What about freedom? You mention Germany, but they had a large number of deaths. Trudeau caused unrest in his country by introducing mandates for truckers. How is Trump a fascist, yet he isn't? He behaved like a dictator when Trump chose freedom.

I said to MistyCee that Trump was out of his depth with the media, and Fauci and others knew that. The Democrats knew that. Trump determined that freedom and common sense were more important than what Fauci says, and the US should be proud of that. His instincts told him all along that economic disruption would hurt your country, and he knew that Americans should be able to go to work and school. If you had Fauci leading you, the economy would have been further damaged. Pandemic or no pandemic, what is an unelected doctor doing dictating to all areas of public life? What is the point in having a president if you are going to swap him with any money grabbing, untrustworthy "expert" who comes along? The same person who was so sure this would happen, and was just waiting for the call. Other countries had the same problems, and they also fared very poorly. Where I live, there were medical experts who may as well have been on their knees begging for "another lockdown!" when all people wanted to do was move on and continue with some normalcy. Most of them had already caught covid or had been vaccinated. The country was almost two years into covid. Thankfully, they were finally told to shut it. Vaccine passports also had to go.

In Spain, where I have also lived, there were people being arrested for going out and buying candy or soda at the start of the pandemic. Is that the kind of policy and police behavior you support? Making something law is exactly that. If your government stops its citizens from going out, they can be arrested for the crime of going out.

Trump was always going to support a vaccine, and he did. In the meantime, he wanted the economy to remain intact, for states to retain their freedoms, and for Americans to live their lives. He got some other things right, like saying UV exposure could help covid. It has long been established that vitamin D helps prevent severe covid infection, and that covid is worse in the winter. The US is very populated, and you will find that this is mostly why it had a supposed high number of deaths. Other countries with the same problem include India, Brazil, and Russia. I come from the third one. Russia ranks #4 in covid fatalities. UK, where I am now, also has a high population. It had a lot of deaths related to covid. I say "related" because the cause of death, in some cases, was being attributed to covid when it was not. Some didn't have it at all, and some only died "with" it.

@sree251 Yes, I'm a girl.

Not a kiwi, although I wouldn't mind living there. They weren't very good on covid though, with all the restrictions.

There are many good things about Americans. I like talking to them. A lot of you want to save your country, and you have thoughts and opinions. Americans care about the future of their country, even when the vision is wrong. Trump makes it more right.

@sunsporter1649 An expert is only an expert in their field, and their field is only one small part of the wide and complex puzzle that is the world and our lives. Advice yes, but they have no right to control our lives or take away our most basic freedoms, like the freedom to step outside.

@badlands [quote] When the economy is shut down and there is reduced activity resulting in inevitable damage, they will not be the most affected[/quote] During 2020, the Trump admin ran about $4 trillion in deficits. In other words, we spent about $4 trillion about tax receipts; about $4.5 trillion total. That amounts to about $13,000 in spending for every man, woman, and child in the nation, or $52,000 for a family of four. That kind of money can purchase a lot of food and shelter forr the 22 million Americans who lost their jobs.

Fauci didn't decide how to allocate that $4.5 trillion; Trump did. The fact that the government gave individuals only $1,400 isn't due to Fauci. The fact that far more of that $4.5 trillion was handed out to corporations was Trump's decision. Yeah, we had the resources to provide a LOT more help to those who temporarily lost their jobs. Trump allocated those resources much more to the rich, in the form of his PPP (paycheck protection plan), which was RIFE with corruption. See [quote]'Biggest fraud in a generation': The looting of the Covid relief plan known as PPP[/quote] [b]https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/biggest-fraud-generation-looting-covid-relief-program-known-ppp-n1279664[/b]

I get it, you and Trump don't care about the body counts; you only care about money. But the fact that you don't live in the US is really showing.

[quote]Fauci has no place telling the president of the US that he should lock everyone in their homes.[/quote] Straw man. That didn't happen. I walked my dog outdoors every single day.

[quote] Do you know what happens to supply chains when they are disrupted like they were?[/quote] Straw man. I went shopping for our family of four at least once every single week of the pandemic. Sometimes shelves were rather empty, but that was due to panic buying, not lack of shipping or manufacturing.

[quote]You mention Germany, but they had a large number of deaths.[/quote] Half the per capita deaths of the US, despite EU border policies.

[quote]Trudeau caused unrest[/quote] Only among a small group of idiots who were stupid enough to use their children as human shields and who rapidly lost whatever popular support they started with.

[quote]what is an unelected doctor doing dictating to all areas of public life?[/quote] Straw man, didn't happen. Trump made all the final decisions.

[quote]The same person who was so sure this would happen,[/quote] After the SARS outbreaks, and especially after the Ebola outbreaks, it was clear that another worldwide pandemic was only a matter of time. Understanding this, Obama created a cabinet level pandemic response unit. Trump dissolved the team in 2018. He could have had a team of his own selected experts there. Instead, he fired them, and Fauci was the nearest person available to fill the role. BTW, if Trump didn't like Fauci, he could have replaced him. Trump replaced plenty of cabinet members; he could have replaced Fauci.

[quote]there were people being arrested for going out and buying candy or soda at the start of the pandemic.[/quote] Straw man. Didn't happen here. Like I said, I shopped for my family every week.

[quote]. If your government stops its citizens from going out, they can be arrested for the crime of going out.[/quote] Straw man. Didn't happen here.

[quote]. The US is very populated, and you will find that this is mostly why it had a supposed high number of deaths. Other countries with the same problem include India, Brazil, and Russia. [/quote] Do you understand what per capita means? It compensates for different population sizes. Yes, wealthy first world USA did better than many 3nd world nations in handling Covid. We are the richest nation on the planet with among the best medical resources. The fact that our Covid response was only middle of the pack is just inexcusable.
[quote] I say "related" because the cause of death, in some cases, was being attributed to covid when it was not.[/quote] I will take this point up in another thread.

@badlands You said: "An expert is only an expert in their field, and their field is only one small part of the wide and complex puzzle that is the world and our lives."

True; and yet, we Americans are enamored by experts following them like sheep. This disease has infected the western world.

@ElwoodBlues Lift up your hat, there is another point there....

@sree251 [quote]and yet, we Americans are enamored by experts following them like sheep. This disease has infected the western world.[/quote]
[i]
Yeah, and what have experts ever given us??[/i]
Well, pain killers, anesthesia, antibiotics there's that. Oh, and greatly reduced infant mortality and a doubling of human lifespan, there's that too.

[i]Anything else?[/i]
Well, electricity, light bulbs, radios, telephones, movies, and television. And refrigerators, washing machines, HVAC, there's that too.

[i]Anything else?[/i]
Well, planes trains and automobiles. Bridges and tunnels. High efficiency low cost farming. Much less drudgery in life.

[i]Anything else?[/i]
TIME. The doubling of lifespans and the removal of much drudgery and pain has given us the gift of TIME to contemplate the human condition.

Yeah, experts, who needs 'em??😂🤣😂🤣

@ElwoodBlues Was the expert that gave us weed killer also the expert that gave us the self-sealing envelope?

@ElwoodBlues You said: "Yeah, experts, who needs 'em??😂🤣😂🤣"

You need experts to provide meds for ailments that come with a life of stress and toil living at an ever faster pace. To top it off, they prolong your lifespan of suffering.

@ElwoodBlues Fauci knew a pandemic was going to happen under Trump. It took just over two years for the virus to emerge after he gave his warning. Why do you think that is?

What are you saying? That Americans should not have been helped during the pandemic? Low economic activity, caused by people not going to work or spending money on what they would normally spend it on, will disrupt the supply chains. They will have to be financially aided, and this is the consequence of lockdowns and mandates. You are criticizing Trump for signing covid relief laws, supported by both Democrats and Republicans, when this is necessary if we are all going to stay inside. Some of the other added debt is due to tax cuts, but you know a lot of it is due to covid. Do you still think lockdowns are good? If you stop your people from working or make it hard for them to do this, you will have to pay them to stay at home. Industries lost money, and they were vast sums of money. Let us consider air travel: this industry saw almost all of its demand drop, and in 2022 it was determined that the airline industry lost almost $220 billion.

Do you think money grows on trees?

You said that you wanted Trump to follow the examples of Germany, France, Canada, and South Korea, correct? You would not have been able to walk so freely then.

Shelves were empty all across the globe. Demand for some goods was enhanced, and demand for other goods was diminished. Production was reduced because less of us were allowed to work. Investment decreased. Places that rely on tourism suddenly had much less of it, and many more restrictions. There are owners who had businesses for years who had to close their business because of covid restrictions and media hype around the virus. Economy aside, the worst consequence was that patients died of diseases not related to covid, yet covid was the reason for it. Some countries made their health care system revolve around the virus, and this meant neglecting others. Covid was madness, and the only cure has been time and truth.

@ElwoodBlues The "experts" are often wrong. We don't need experts when dealing with a disease like covid, especially when they pretend to be experts in other fields, or don't care about the consequences of their actions.

@badlands You said:"Covid was madness, and the only cure has been time and truth."

What is the truth about Covid?

I travel and live abroad six months a year. The last time I came home was in Dec 2019 just before Covid broke out. When all hell broke loose, I self-isolated, stayed home, and stopped traveling, even within the country. I had to, in order to avoid vaccination. Thankfully, I don't have to work for a living.

Covid had no impact on me.Who knows? I could have been infected and never had symptoms. Yes, it was madness unleashed on the world. Trump says it's a Chinese virus because it came from China. What was Fauci doing at Wuhan, the epi-center, with a US funded gain-of-function research program? China has denied that Covid originated at the Wuhan lab. This is as befuddling as the assassination of President John F Kennedy.

@badlands raises the straw man [quote]Do you think money grows on trees?[/quote]
I explained to you what money Trump spent, $4.5 trillion, and where he distributed it, mostly to business owners. And I suggested that if he were concerned with the plight of working people, he could have distributed it differently. I didn't make up any new money; I criticized Trump's allocation priorities.

[quote]What are you saying? That Americans should not have been helped during the pandemic?[/quote] I said quite the opposite - that working people should have gotten more help, and business owners less help. That's really not so hard to understand.

[quote]You are criticizing Trump for signing covid relief laws,[/quote] I am criticizing Trump's relative allocation of relief to working people vs business owners.

[quote]You said that you wanted Trump to follow the examples of Germany, France, Canada, and South Korea, correct? [/quote] Not qure. I am saying these nations prove that there were multiple better responses to Covid than Trump's.

[quote] Let us consider air travel: this industry saw almost all of its demand drop, and in 2022 it was determined that the airline industry lost almost $220 billion. [/quote] A drop in the bucket of Trump's $4 trillion deficit in 2020.

BUT. Far more importantly, where is it written that the air travel industry is guaranteed a profit? Where is guaranteed that airline stock holders can't lose money? Trump allocated spending such that it kept stockholders and businesses whole AT THE EXPENSE OF WORKING PEOPLE!!!

Capitalism isn't risk-free. There are inherent risks in owning stock in businesses; bad things can happen. Trump used government money and power to defray those risks, preferring stock holders over people who had lost their jobs.

[quote]Do you still think lockdowns are good?[/quote] I think we must have different definitions of lockdowns. Your straw man arguments don't apply here in the USA. What I experienced saved many lives and flattened the curve. I was outside walking my dog every day, and in supermarkets shopping for the family weekly; and we worked mostly from home with occasional trips to the office.

[quote]The "experts" are often wrong.[/quote]
Not NEARLY as often as demagogue politicians like Trump. There are no certainties in life, but I'm gonna listen to the people who doubled human life spans and removed most of the drudgery from life. You can keep your lying corrupt windbags.

@ElwoodBlues I assume you are middle class. What do you do with people who can't work from home? Or those who are, as you say, business owners? I said that some of them had to close their businesses due to covid. Having a business does not make you rich; it makes you poor and bankrupt if you have no money coming in. When this happens, you stop paying taxes, and you can no longer afford your employees, which most businesses do have. Business owners aren't monsters; they are people like you who are just trying to make their way in life, but who want freedom and for their destiny to be theirs. If it were easier for all of us to get into business, employers would have to think more about how they treat their staff.

What working people do you think should have gotten more help? I want an idea of the jobs you have in mind. Did you know that if you don't lock down, you don't need to help them, or the business owners, at all? Think of a bar worker. What happens with them when there is a lockdown? You have to pay the bar owners to keep their business going, and you have to pay the worker to stay at home.

The airline industry is one of many examples. What do you think that does to the economy, to jobs? To the tourism industry? This is the system we are in; it is spend and work, work and spend. When this stops happening, businesses are hurt, and we are hurt. You want another system, another way? That would take a lot of time and effort, and very few others would want it. This is what we have, and destroying it makes little sense if it can't be replaced with something better. The middle classes like to buy themselves nice things. How are they going to do that if everything stops?

[quote]BUT. Far more importantly, where is it written that the air travel industry is guaranteed a profit?[/quote]

It doesn't matter that it isn't guaranteed one; it is used to one. This isn't just about the corporation; it is about the people who work for it and the places the customers go to, places relying on their spending. You mention how corporations and business owners (which you know include small business owners) were prioritized by Trump, when he did his best for everyone, but what do you make of how the rich got richer during the pandemic? Lockdowns only made the poor get poorer, in every country. The world experienced a crisis—a crisis of reason.

[quote]There are no certainties in life, but I'm gonna listen to the people who doubled human life spans and removed most of the drudgery from life.[/quote]

Did Dr. Mengele increase any lifespans? He was an "expert", too.

@badlands [quote]. What do you do with people who can't work from home?[/quote] I've already explained twice. Trump should have given more Covid relief to people who lost their jobs, and less to business owners and stockholders. How many times do I have to repeat myself??

[quote]Business owners aren't monsters;[/quote] Business owners are mostly stockholders. These people should share the pain with the rest of society when bad things happen. Spending shouldn't be unbalanced to protect stockholders from risk at the expense of working people. I keep repeating the same points to you.

[quote]It doesn't matter that it isn't guaranteed one; it is used to one.[/quote] It is the job of of American government to uphold the Constitution and protect the citizenry. It is NOT the job of American government to insulate businesses from the financial risks of doing business.

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The fact that so many other developed nations handled Covid better than the US is proof that Trump badly botched our Covid response. The numbers don't lie.

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You wanted support for my claim that other countries handled Covid better than the US? Here it is; sorry, there is data from 2021 mixed in; Biden did better than Trump, but it's still clear that per capita covid deaths in the US could have been far far better.



As for HOW other countries succeeded where Trump failed; sorry, I'm not gonna get lost in your attempt to change the subject. The FACT that they did much better is all I need to make the case that Trump botched our Covid response.

P.S. funny thing: I'm always supplying data to support my claims; you never to, [b]LOL!!![/b]

@ElwoodBlues Why were they losing their jobs? What was causing this to happen? You can't say Trump, he wanted them to keep their jobs.

You still haven't specified what kind of workers you have in mind. Who did you want to stay at home and be paid more by the government at the expense of your country?

What stocks do newly self-employed people have? What good are they when you aren't selling anything?

It is the job of a business owner to make their business a success and to pay any employees they have. It seems you like the idea of destroying what they have, and who they pay.

You claim that "many other developed nations handled covid better than Trump", but why can't you support this view and tell me why or how they did this?