Ethnic cleansing is going on in the West Bank.

There is no Hamas in the West Bank.

https://novaramedia.com/2023/10/19/a-chance-to-implement-forced-displacement-israeli-settlers-are-attacking-palestinians-in-the-west-bank/

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Graylight · 51-55, F

This is absolutely true, and the US would do well to pay attention to the details. Most of use were raised from birth to support the beleaguered state of Israel because a president told them we would once.

The actual history of the region tells a slightly different story. Gaza is essentially an occupied state with a walled city through which no one may enter or exit, with enforcement by sea and air. Their land was stripped from them despite a clear agreement for an established, free land.

Look, here are no innocents here. And this situation, while long-lived, is hardly unique. There was a time the English crown wanted everything they could touch, and the Irish we left to starve, flee or fight back. The IRA was a terrorist organization, too...or the action arm of a suffocating nation. And much of its funding came from US supporters; foreign backers with a less clear vision of the current events.

Turns out that in Ireland, neither side was working productively. And with great reluctance and great suspicion, both sides were able to strike a truce and work together after decades of animosity. Grudgingly, sometimes, but peacefully. Until the Israelis and Palestinians can something along those lines, war will never end. But it's not enough to back a side on the thinnest of understanding.

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@Graylight [quote]Look, here are no innocents here. And this situation, while long-lived, is hardly unique. There was a time the English crown wanted everything they could touch, and the Irish we left to starve, flee or fight back.[/quote]

I like you and you have a considered and well thought out opinion. None of this is intended to be rude but I am passionately committed to my positions on this and I do know a fair amount on both issues. Please don't be offended.

I am English and unashamed of it. I support all of the sports teams but (and this really matters) I am utterly prepared to be critical of my county's history when it's warranted. If you knew me, you wouldn't have posted that. I am actually sympathetic to (most aspects of) Irish republicanism. I imagine a hypothetical situation of me living in Ireland, Sinn Fein canvassers knocking on my door, hearing my accent and starting to politely back away only to be told that I am on their side!

I'm against imperialism and the Irish were absolutely victims of that. It is not for nothing that the Irish is by far the most Palestinian-friendly country in the whole of Europe. Even their centre-right PM has to pay lip service to this,

The two situations are NOT practically analogous though.

"If the Palestinians played nice like Gerry Adams eventually did, then we could all have a happy ending?"

Really, no. Sorry if this exaggerates your point but it is genuinely what I think you mean.

The Good Friday Agreement was a triumph but the specifics matter. It was negotiated under a centrist UK Labour government (essentially agostic on the Irish question) and only happened because unionist politicians were able to make big compromises and be a 55% that would power share with a 45%. David Trimble, the leading unionist politician at the time, effectively sacrificed his career for peace and compromise. The most powerful party gave up a bit of itself to make it work. The idea of Netanyahu doing that is for the birds. Frankly, the idea of anyone in the current Israeli government doing that is also in the realm of epic fantasy!

The power imbalances are also different. Neither the NI unionist community or the British government ever tried to drive all of the Irish out of Ulster. We did many awful things in history and I'm not looking for credit, just that the analogy does not work in that way.

Graylight · 51-55, F

@Burnley123 I concede on most of your points, and it's always tricky when finding an analogous situation. In broad terms, I'm trying to draw a commonality to the basic conflict and the fact it's been repeated around the world. I favor neither side, not being part of the conflict, but I hope this violence brings to light the actual histories of each nation and people, because it's unquestionably lopsided on this side of the pond.

(And no, the Brits didn't drive the Irish from Ulster, but they did their level best to starve out the rest of the country, among a few other things.)

No worries, and this is likely a topic best voiced when people can sit across from each other and discuss things. But I take no umbrage. Clarification filters through many sources, and you're a good one.

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@Graylight good podt

just fyi, I'm well aware if British atrocities in Ireland. I support Irish republicanism. I am sure this is unusual for an Irish America to here from a Brit but it's sincere and there is a not insignificant minority on this side of the Irish sea who have always felt this way.